Wong Kiew Kits Perspective on Hung Gar

[FIRE HAWK]

Question 1
Isn't Wong Fei Hoong's kung fu style Hoong Family Kung Fu and not Shaolin Kung Fu as described in your webpage? Also, can you give me this kung fu style's history.



Answer 1
Yours is an illuminating question that will help to clarify some historical points for many other people. You are right. Wong Fei Hoong's style is Hoong Family Kungfu, also spelt as Hoong Ka or Hung Gar Kungfu. It is also Southern Shaolin Kungfu. There are many styles of Southern Shaolin Kungfu, and Hoong Family Kungfu is probably the most representative of Southern Shaolin. A brief history, described below, will make this clear.

Actually Wong Fei Hoong himself or his immediate students did not call their kungfu Hung Gar or Hoong Family. By the way, the Chinese character "Hoong" in Wong Fei Hoong is different from the Chinese character "Hoong" in Hoong Family, although they sound the same, and therefore their English spellings are also the same. "Hoong" in Wong Fei Hoong is the name of a kind of big bird, whereas "Hoong" in Hoong Family is a surname and means "turbulent water".

Wong Fei Hoong learned from his father, Wong Kei Ying, who in turn learned from Luk Ah Choy. Luk Ah Choy was a junior classmate of Hoong Hei Khoon. Both of them were distinguished disciples of the Venerable Chee Seen, the First Patriarch of Southern Shaolin, at the southern Shaolin Monastery in Fujian province in south China.

After the burning of the southern Shaolin Monastery by the Qing army, Hoong Hei Khoon escaped to Guangdong province and taught kungfu, which was later called Hoong Family Kungfu after him. (One of the monks who also escaped from the burning southern Shaolin Monastery was the Venerable Jiang Nan, who transmitted the Shaolin arts outside China, and after four generations to my school.)

Contrary to what many people believe, Hoong Hei Khoon did not invent Hoong Family Kungfu (or Hung Gar Kungfu) in the way Yim Wing Choon invented Wing Choon Kungfu, or Chen Harng invented Choy-Li-Fatt Kungfu. Hoong Hei Khoon might have modified some of the kungfu he had learnt at the southern Shaolin Monastery, but generally he taught what he had learnt from the Venerable Chee Seen (whose name means "Extreme Kindness").

Hence, among the various Southern Shaolin styles, which include Wing Choon, Choy-Li-Fatt, Dragon Style, Black Tiger, Pak Mei and Lau Gar, Hoong Family Kungfu is the direct transmission from Southern Shaolin; Hoong Family Kungfu is in fact the parental Southern Shaolin Kungfu. That is why although Wong Fei Hoong's style is not directly descended from Hoong Hei Khoon but from Luk Ah Choy, many people today rightly refer to it as Hoong Family Kungfu.

Incidentally, this interesting historical background has some parallel meaning for me. When I learned kungfu from my first master, Sifu Lai Chin Wah, better known as Uncle Righteousness, he always called his kungfu Shaolin, and not Hung Gar. Later when my master had passed away, some of my classmates founded the Chin Wah Hung Gar Association to teach my sifu's kungfu. They chose "Hung Gar" because the term was popular then. If I were present then, I would have suggested "Shaolin" instead. Today many students of the Chin Wah Hung Gar Association might not know that what they are practicing is Shaolin Kungfu.

Question 7
Also, can you tell me the lineage of Sifu Lai Chin Wah's Hoong Family Kung Fu lineage from Chee Seen?


Answer 7
My sifu, Sifu Lai Chin Wah, was not only a great fighter but also highly righteous. He was actually better known by his nickname Ye Sook, or Uncle Righteousness. He learned from three masters, namely Ng Yew Loong, Chu Khuen, and Lou Chan Wei. All these three masters were the best known Southern Shaolin masters of their time. My sifu was an idealist; he sought and learned from the best. Ng Yew Loong learned from Chan Fook, a Shaolin monk from the southern Shaolin Monastery in Fujian province, who returned to lay life. I could not trace beyond Chan Fook.

The Venerable Chee Seen was the last abbot of the southern Shaolin Monastery before it was razed to the ground by the Qing army. Hence Chan Fook could have learned from one of Chee Seen's disciple in the monastery.

My sifu, Uncle Righteousness, passed on to me as a legacy a secret kungfu set known as "Essence of Shaolin". This kungfu set is reputed to be the special set of the Venerable Harng Yin, the most senior disciple of Chee Seen. It was from this kungfu set that I learned the poetic couplet I mentioned in the webpage Amazing Techniques in Shaolin Kungfu, namely, in Cantonese, "miu fatt fatt chong shang miu fatt, kei kung kung seong kin kei kung". It means "marvelous techniques beget marvelous techniques; wondrous skills generate wondrous skills".


A priceless old photograph taken more than 30 years ago showing a lion dance demonstration by Uncle Righteousness at the lion head and Sifu Wong at the tail

Question 8
I've heard of Hong Xi Guan combining Black Tiger Kung Fu and White Crane Kung Fu into one style now known as Hoong Family Kung Fu. Is that true?


Answer 8
It is true that Hong Xi Guan combined Black Tiger Kungfu and White Crane Kungfu into one style, but it is not true that this was how Hoong Family Kungfu came about.

Hoong Family Kungfu is actually Southern Shaolin Kungfu. It is named after Hung Xi Guan, prononced as Hoong Hei Khoon in Cantonese. Hoong Hei Khoon was one of the most distinguished disciples of Chee Seen. After the burning of the southern Shaolin Monastery in Fujian, Hoong Hei Khoon escaped to Guangdong, possibily in the district town of Fatt San, and set up a kungfu school called, in Cantonese, Siu Lam Hoong Koon, which means Hoong's Shaolin Institute. The kungfu taught here was later referred to as Hoong Family Kungfu.

The three fundamental kungfu sets in Hoong Family Kungfu are "Kung Tze Fook Fu", "Fu Hok Seong Yin" and "Tit Seen Khuen", which means "Taming the Tiger", "Tiger and Crane" and "Iron Wire Set". The "Tiger and Crane" set was derived from the combination of the tiger style of Hoong Hei Khoon, and the crane style of his wife, Fong Chet Leong. The "Tiger and Crane" set is also the fundamental set in the Hoong Family Kungfu taught by my sifu, Uncle Righteousness.


Three patterns from the "Tiger and Crane" kungfu set performed by Sifu Wong more than 25 years ago. The names of the patterns, from left to right, are "Lohan Emerging from Cave", "Single Tiger Emerging from Cave" and "Single-Legged Hungry Crane".

Question 9
From the Internet, a 9th generation disciple of Hoong Family Kung Fu says that actually Hong Xi Guan invented Hoong Family Kung Fu, naming it after the first emperor of the Ming dynasty.


Answer 9
This could be possible, but personally I don't think it was so. Hoong Hei Khoon, or Hung Xi Guan in Mandarin pronounciation, did not invent any kungfu style; he taught what he had learned from Chee Seen. Chinese literature also shows that during and after his time, his style of kungfu was called Shaolin, and not Hoong Family. The term Hoong Family Kungfu, or Hoong Ka Khuen, became popular only recently.

Today, the kungfu style of Wong Fei Hoong, who was two generations behind Hoong Hei Khoon, is generally regarded as typical Hoong Family Kungfu. But Wong Fei Hoong himself called his kungfu Shaolin, and not Hoong Family. More significantly although it may not be generally known, Wong Fei Hoong's succession line did not come from Hoong Hei Khoon but from Luk Ah Choy, who was Hoong Hei Khoon's classmate under Chee Seen.

In a similar way, present students of Chin Wah Kungfu Association, named after my sifu Lai Chin Wah, call their kungfu Hoong Ka or Hoong Family, but I am definitely sure that my sifu called his kungfu Shaolin.

I can still remember clearly that one night, although I was then only about 10 years old, my sifu told us (my classmates and me) as follows, "Many people have asked me what "ka" (family) our kungfu is; I told them ours is Shaolin." Anyone visiting our training hall would have no doubt about that. Every night before our kungfu training, every student would offer a joss stick to Chee Seen, the First Patriarch of Southern Shaolin Kungfu, and whose name means "Extreme Kindness". I can remember that clearly because I was the one who tidied the altar and lighted the oil lamp.
Question 7
Did the so called "Five Ancestors of Shaolin" -- Jisin Simsi (Zhishan Chanshi), Ng Mui (Wu Mei), Baakmei (Baimei), Miuhin (Miaoxian) and Fung Dakdou (Feng Daode) flee from the northern or the southern Shaolin Temple? Can you briefly tell us something about these individuals and about the legends of destruction of both temples? Who was the traitor -- Baakmei? Ma Ningyi?
Pavel, Czech Republic


Answer 7
According to legends these Five Ancestors of Shaolin escaped from the first burning of the Shaolin Monastery, but there was no mention whether it was the northern monastery in Henan Province or the southern monastery in Fujian Province. Jisin Simsi, or the Venerable Chee Seen as I spelt the name elsewhere in my webpages, rebuilt the monastery, which was recorded to be at the Jiulian (or Nine Lotus) Mountains in Fujian Province This monastery was also later burnt by the Qing Army with the help of Lama monks from Tibet. Many masters today think that the Five Ancestors of Shaolin escaped from the northern monastery

It is illuminating to compare this popular legend with available facts. It is now established that there were at least two Shaolin monasteries in China, one in Henan which is now restored by the present Chinese government, and the other in Fujian which is no longer standing but its original site has been found.

Historical records show that the northern Shaolin Monastery was burnt three times. The first two times were in the distant past, and the last time was in 1928 when a warlord set the temple burning for more than two months. But before this time, Shaolin Kungfu was no longer practised in this northern monastery. The third burning was because a rival warlord used the temple as his base. Not much was recorded about the southern monastery except that Shaolin Kungfu was keenly practised there and it acted as a revolutionary centre to overthrow the Qing Dynasty.

As the last burning of the northern monastery was during the early Republican period (1911- 1945) and not during the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911), it was not feasible that the Five Ancestors escaped from this northern monastery. There could be a remote possibility of another burning of the monastery before this but not recorded in history. However, even this remote possibility is negated by the fact that the type of kungfu practised and passed on to posterity by all the Five Shaolin Ancestors is characteristically southern Shaolin, not northern.

There are two more relevant and interesting facts. One, the southern Shaolin Monastery was at Quanzhow, and not at the Jiulian Mountain. Modern Chinese archaeologists have found its site, and the present Chinese government has erected a stone-tablet to mark the site. Nothing, yet, has been found at the Jiulian Mountain. Two, historical records show that this southern Shaolin Monastery at Quanzhow was built by imperial decree during the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644), and not by the Venerable Chee Seen during the Qing Dynasty.

Piecing together evidence from both historical facts and legends, I believe that the Five Shaolin Ancestors escaped from the southern Shaolin Monastery at Quanzhow. The Quanzhow Shaolin Monastery was then a rallying centre for revolutionaries against the Qing government. According to legends, the Manchurian prince Yong Cheng infiltrated into the southern Shaolin Monastery as a kungfu monk. After familiarizing himself with the secrets of the monastery as well as of Shaolin Kungfu, and after becoming the Qing emperor, he dispatched an army with the help of kungfu experts from Tibet to raze the monastery to the ground.

Later, a lady kungfu master named Lui Sei Leong infiltrated into the palace, fought her way single-handed through layers of imperial guards and assassinated the emperor Yong Cheng, who himself was a kungfu expert. Lui Sei Leong then renounced worldly life and became a nun. Some people believed she was Ng Mui. Ng Mui wandered over China but spend much of her time in Yunnan. Her two favourite disciples were Yim Wing Choon, who later founded Wing Choon Kungfu, and Foong Sai Yoke, whose mainstream training was from the Venerable Chee Seen.

Pak Mei was a Taoist priest although he trained in the Shaolin Monastery which was Buddhist. He escaped to Er-mei Mountain in Sichuan where he developed Pak Mei kungfu. His two outstanding disciples were Li Pa San, who later initiated Li Ka (or Li Family) Kungfu, and Kou Chun Choong, the military governor of Guangdong and Guangxi.. Later Pak Mei supported the Qing government and led the attack on the Shaolin Monastery built by Chee Seen. Pak Mei was a great fighter. He was expert in many arts, including Golden Bell and Tongzigong, or Child's Art. Dragon Style Kungfu was initiated by him.

The Venerable Chee Seen (Jisin Simsi) was the only Buddhist monk of the Five Shaolin Ancestors. Through hard work he rebuilt another southern Shaolin Monastery at Jiulian (or Nine Lotus) Mountain, but the Qing Army caught up and burnt it too, led by Pak Mei and his disciple Ko Chun Choong. Chee Seen had many distinguished disciples, and his best ten are mentioned below.

It is not surprising that no archaeological evidence has been found for the Shaolin Monastery at Jiulian Mountain. Even in modern times before the northern Shaolin Monastery was restored by the present Chinese government and the site of the Quanzhow Shaolin Monastery found, many people, including many Chinese, though that the Shaolin Monastery was only a myth, without concrete reality.

The fourth of the Five Shaolin ancestors, Fung Tou Tuck, was also a Taoist priest. After the burning of the Quanzhow Shaolin Monastery, he fled to Wudang Mountain in Hubei Province, where he developed the Wudang version of Shaolin Kungfu . This Wudang Shaolin Kungfu is usually shortened to Wudang Kungfu, which one must note is different from the Wudang Kungfu of Zhang San Feng a few centuries before him. Fung Tou Tuck sided with Pak Mei and joined in the attack on the Shaolin Monastery at Julian Mountain.

Miu Hein was the only lay person amongst the Five Shaolin Ancestors. He escaped to Guangdong where he spread his Shaolin specialty, the Shaolin Flower Set. His only daughter, Miu Chui Fa, a lady kungfu master, was one of the two female disciples of Chee Seen, the other being Li Choi Ping. Miu Choi Fa's third son was Fong Sai Yoke.

According to the southern Shaolin tradition, once a year disciples engaged in free sparring to choose the best ten fighters who would sit in ten special chairs on both flanks of the monastery hall. (This tradition was carried on by my master Sifu Ho Fatt Nam, but was later discontinued.) The "ten great disciples", or "sap tai tei tze", of the Venerable Chee Seen were the Venerable Harng Yien, the Venerable Sam Tuck, Hoong Hei Khoon, Luk Ah Choy, Miu Choi Fa, Thoong Chein Kern, Lin Swee Hin, Fong Sai Yoke, Li Choi Ping and Ma Ling Yi. Please see more information below.

The tenth great disciple was responsible for filling a gigantic symbolic oil lamp, which would last for a full year. One year, Ma Ling Yi was drunk and broke the lamp while performing his duty. He was punished, but he bore the grudge deeply. He left the monastery secretly and told its secrets to Kou Chun Choong, who later organized an attack on the monastery.


Question 8
According to Lam Sai Weng's brief history of "Kung Tze Fok Fu Khuen" ("Gong Zi Fu Hu Quan") or Taming of the Tiger Set. monks from the Fukjian Shaolin helped the Ching (Qing) government to stop Japanese invasion to Taiwan. Other sources claim it was an invasion of Tibetans, Mongolian tribes etc. Do you know something about this?


Answer 8
It was the Ming government that the monks from the Quanzhow Shaolin Monastery helped. During this time, the Japanese had numerous naval expeditions to attack China, including Taiwan, but each time they were pushed off by the Ming army or navy. Two outstanding generals, who were also two of the best known in Chinese military history, were Yu Da Yau and Chi Ji Guang. Both of them were Shaolin disciples, and both were experts in using the long spear.


Question 9
I have heard about "Ten Tigers of Shaolin Temple", layman disciples of Fujian Shaolin -- Hung Heigun (Hong Xiguan), Fong Saiyuk (Fang Shiyu), Wu Waikin (Hu Huiqian) etc. Can you briefly tell us more about these southern heroes?


Answer 9
What you mean are the "Ten Great Disciples of Shaolin", or "Sil Lam Sap Tai Tei Tze" in Cantonese, "Shao Lin Shi Da Di Zi" in Mandrine. Different grandmasters at the Shaolin Monastery logically had different sets of ten top disciples, but the most popular in kungfu legends were the ten great disciples of the Venerable Chee Seen.

These ten great disciples of the Shaolin Monastery were not placed according to their seniority in learning from the master, but according to their performance in a grand annual free sparring competition. This tradition was practised in the southern Shaolin Monastery; I am not sure if it was also practised in the northern Shaolin Monastery.

Wu Wai Thein was not one of Chee Seen's top students. In his haste to avenge his father's death, he stole out of the monastery via a ditch before he could complete his basic training. Even so, he was a good fighter, specializing in the Flower Set.

The Ten Great Disciples of Shaolin during the time Chee Seen was the abbot were as follows.

The Venerable Harng Yien was the most senior as well the foremost of Chee Seen's disciples. Unlike the others who were frequently involved in fighting, he was also the most peace-loving. He placed spiritual cultivation far above combat efficiency. Paradoxically, or perhaps because of this spiritual focus, he was also the best fighter among the ten.

The Venerable Sam Tuck was the second best. He and Harng Yien were the only two monks among the top ten disciples; the other eight were laypersons. Later Sam Tuck became the abbot of Sai Sim (or Xi Chan) Monastery in Guangdong., where many Southern Shaolin heroes gathered.

After the burning of the Shaolin Monastery, Hoong Hei Khoon escaped to Fatt San in Guangdong where he set up his kungfu school called Siew Lam Hoong Goon, which means the Hoong School of Shaolin Kungfu. His style of kungfu is now popularly known as Hoong Ka (Hung Gar) or Hoong Family Kungfu.

Luk Ah Choy was a Manchurian, not a Han Chinese. But, of course, although the Shaolin disciples vowed to overthrow the Manchurian government, they loved Luk Ah Choy as a brother. He was instrumental in spreading Shaolin Kungfu to posterity.

Miu Choi Fa was Miu Hein's daughter. She herself and all her three sons, How Yoke, Mei Yoke and Sai Yoke learned from Chee Seen. She was expert in the Plum Flower Single Knife. Sadly, she was killed by a rain of arrows while defending the monastery from burning.

Thoong Chein Kern was another Manchurian. His surname was "Thoong", and "Chein Kern" which means "Thousand Pounds" in Cantonese, was his nickname because his arms and horse-stance were very powerful.

Lin Swee Hin was a son of Lin Karn Yew, a great general who helped the Manchurian government to subdue rebellious Tibet and Mongolia. But he was later killed by the emperor who feared his extraordinary military talents. His son, Lin Swee Hin, first learned from Fung Tou Tuck but when he found out that his teacher sided with the Qing government, he turned to Chee Seen.

Fong Sai Yoke was often known as Len Chye Yoke, or Handsome Yoke. His most celebrated occasion which also shot him to fame instantly happened when he was only about fifteen years old. A kungfu master nicknamed Tiger Lei with his insulting slogan "Hitting all Guangdong with a fist, and striking Suzhow and Hangzhow with a kick" was unbeaten for weeks, yet was defeated by Fong Sai Yoke.

Li Choi Ping and Miu Choi Fa were the only two woman disciples of Chee Seen. Li Choi Ping was very good with the Shaolin sword.

Ma Ling Yi was the last of the ten top disciples. He was an orphan picked up by Chee Seen and brought to the monastery. Yet, he betrayed the very people who had cared for and loved him.


Question 10
Can you tell us something about Hung Heigun (Hong Xiguan) and his wife Fong Wingcheun (Fang Yongchun)? Was she a relative of Fong Saiyuk? Can you tell us more about their son, Hung Manding (Hong Wending)?


Answer 10
When Hoong Hei Khoon was teaching Shaolin Kungfu in Guangdong, he met his wife Fong Wing Choon, who was also known as Fong Cheit Leong, meaning Seventh Lady Fong, as she was number seven in her family. She was not related to Fong Sai Yoke, and was not the same person as Yim Wing Choon.

Fong Wing Choon was expert in the Crane Style of Shaolin Kungfu from the Quanzhow Shaolin Monastery. Hoong Hei Khoon incorporated the Crane style of his wife into his own Tiger style, resulting in the famous Tiger-Crane Set of Hoong Ka Kungfu. Later, his son Hoong Man Ting, and Wu Wei Thein's son, Wu Ah Piew, whom Hoong Hei Khoon had adopted as his own, using the Tiger-Crane Set together killed Pak Mei. Unfortunately, little is known about Hoong Man Ting and Wu Ah Piew, or about their lineage.
Note Questions and Answers 1-4 below on the legends of Southern Shaolin are a continuation of the previous series, November 1999 (Part 1), where the burning of the Shaolin monasteries and stories of famous Southern Shaolin heroes are explained.


Question 1
Grand Grandmaster Lam Saiwing writes in his book on Gungji fuk fu kyun (Gongzi fu hu quan) that Venerable Jisin taught Luk Achoi (Lu Acai) in Hoitung (Haizhuang) monastery in Canton, and not in southern Shaolin temple. Can you explain this contradiction? Why are most Hungga (Hongjia) exponents today descendants from Luk Achoi and not Hung Heigun?
Pavel, Czech Republic


Answer 1
As a great lover of kungfu classics, I too have a copy of the book you mentioned. The book was Grandmaster Lam Sai Weng's work, but was recorded by his disciple using the pen-name Nim Fatt San Yein (which literally means "Mountain Man who Recites the Buddha"). The part in question appears in "Introduction to Kung Tze Fuk Fu Kheun" written by the grandmaster's nephew, Lam Cho, who himself is a kungfu master. The following is my literal translation of the relevant part:

Kung Tze Fu Fu Kheun, or Taming-Tiger Set, originally came from Shaolin. Initially Shaolin burnt in fire. The Venerable Chee Seen escaped and arrived at my Guangdong Province at Hoitung Monastery. Worried that the supreme art of Shaolin be lost. Inside the monastery, taught students and transmitted the art. Became the direction of Shaolin Kungfu flowing to my Guangdong Province. Luk Ah Choy, his first disciple. Received the secret transmission of the Taming-Tiger Set. Then ransmitted to Wong Thai of Sei Chiew of Nam Hoi District. Thai transmitted to Wong Kei Yin. Kei Yin transmitted to his son, Fei Hoong. Fei Hoong transmitted to his uncle, Grandpa Sai Weng.
Firstly, one should realize that Chinese writing is concise. The above literal translation would give some idea of Chinese writing. Secondly, unlike many westerners, the Chinese are generally not so concerned with factual details; they are more concerned with the practical benefits that the writing can give. Hence, the first "Shaolin" above may refer to "Shaolin Kungfu" or to "Shaolin Monastery".
It does not matter much which is referred to because the end result is about the same. But it is more likely to refer to "Shaolin Monastery", as the second "Shaolin" obviously indicates. However, it is not stated whether the Shaolin Monastery was at Henan in the north, or at Quanzhow in Fujian, or at Juilian Mountain also in Fujian. With some background knowledge, I would interpret it as the Shaolin Monastery at Juilian Mountain.

Similarly, the adjective "first" does not necessarily mean that Luk Ah Choy was Chee Seen's first or most senior disciple. I would interpret it as amongst Chee Seen's disciples who had learnt the Taming-Tiger Set, Luk Ah Choy was the best.

The adjective "his" in "his uncle" was a mistake (which could be made originally, or by the printer). It should be "my uncle". Wong Fei Hoong did not teach his own uncle, but Lam Cho's uncle, who was Lam Sai Weng. The term "grandpa" does not actually mean "grandfather"; it is a conventional term for a kungfu patriarch.

Now, we come to your questions proper. There was no contradiction why Chee Seen taught Luk Ah Choy at the Hoitung Monastery and not at the southern Shaolin Monastery. He might, or might not, have taught Luk Ah Choy this set at the Shaolin Monastery, but after the monastery was burnt and Chee Seen escaped to Guangdong, Lok Ah Choy often met up with his master.

Although Hoong Ka Kungfu is named in honour of Hoong Hei Khoon, most of Hoong Ka exponents today are descended from the lineage of Luk Ah Choy. Please note that Hoong Hei Khoon and Luk Ah Choy did not call their kungfu Hoong Ka, they called it Shaolin. "Hoong Ka" is a modern term; even as recent as Lam Sai Weng's time, which was about 50 years ago, what is now called Hoong Ka by many people was then called Shaolin.

For example, in this kungfu classic Lam Sai Weng and all the others refer to the art as Shaolin, and not as Hoong Ka. Perhaps it may be more appropriate to ask the relevant persons why they call their Shaolin art Hoong Ka, than to ask me why I call my Hoong Ka art Shaolin. Nevertheless, for me there is one significant reason for calling my art Shaolin. i.e. my training programmes are generally "softer" and involves more of qigong than what is usually expected in Hoong Ka training today, which frequently uses sandbags and sometimes weights.

One reason why Hoong Hei Khoon's lineage is not as popular as Luk Ah Choy's, has something to do with the philosophy of his wife Fong Wing Choon and his successors Hoong Man Ting and Wu Ah Piew. Although Fong Wing Choon was a superb fighter, she preferred peaceful living to fighting, knowing that there would be no end to taking revenge. She persuaded her husband not to go after Pak Mei.

Yet, the "crime" of Pak Mei in burning the Shaolin Monastery was too great to be ignored. She did not want the world to point at them and accuse them of choosing comfort over righteousness. So when Hoong Man Ting and Wu Ah Piew decided to fight Pak Mei, she let them go on one condition, that their fight irrespective of success or failure would be the last one.

Thus, after righting the wrong by killing Pak Mei, Hoong Man Ting and Wu Ah Piew as well as Hoong Hei Khoon and Fong Wing Choon retired from society to avoid further fighting. Personally I consider this to be good philosophy. The aim of kungfu training is not to seek fame, or worse, seek revenge, but to enable us to live rewardingly and peacefully

Many, many years later, when Hoong Hei Khoon was in his eighties, a young girl was found fainted outside his doorstep. Hoong Hei Khoon and his wife pitied her and adopted her into the family. She worked hard, serving them as a dutiful daughter, which pleased them very much as they did not have a daughter of their own.

One evening about eight months later she served tea to Hoong Hei Khonn as usual. As he raised the cup to drink, she drove a phoenix-eye fist into a deadly vital point on his left ribs. She fled, leaving a message that she took revenge for her father whom Hoong Hei Khoon had killed many years ago.

That single strike was fatal. In his dying breath Hoong Hei Khoon categorically instructed that no one should go after that girl nor to investigate any further, reminding them of his wife's wisdom that revenge would continue without end. He accepted his karma, blessed the girl and died peacefully, leaving us the memory and heritage of a great master.

On the other hand, Luk Ah Choy's lineage produced Wong Fei Hoong who taught thousands of civil guards during the early Republican period. Wong Fei Hoong was so well known that he was called the "Tiger after the Guangdong Ten Tigers", and his adventures were made into movie films.

His disciple, Lam Sai Weng, brought his style of kungfu to Hong Kong, where it spread to various parts of the world. The top-class Hong Kong kungfu film director, Lau Ka Leong, who has been instrumental in spreading the popularity of genuine Shaolin kungfu movies throughout the world, is the son of Lau Cham, a disciple of Lam Sai Weng.


Question 2
Can you tell us more about "Ten Tigers of Gwangdong (Guangdong)?


Answer 2
All the "Ten Tigers of Guangdong were Shaolin lay disciples. They did not studied in the Shaolin Monastery itself, but were directly connected to the southern Shaolin Monastery at Jiulian Mountain or at Quanzhow, having learnt from monks or lay disciples who in turn were from the monasteries before they were burnt.

Although they lived in the later part of the Qing Dynasty in Guangdong Province, they did not appear at the same time as a group. (A Hong Kong video series showing them at the same time and place, is fictitious.) They were about two or three generations after the Five Shaolin Ancestors. The Ten Tigers were Thit Kew Sam, Wong Yein Lam, Wong Khei Yin, Su Hak Fu, Su Hut Yee, Chow Thye, Tham Chai Wen, Wong Cheng Ho, Tit Chee Chan, and See Yu Leong.

Thit Kew Sam was the foremost of the Ten Guangdong Tigers. Thit Kew Sam, which literally means "Iron Bridge Three", was his nickname because his arms were very powerful; his actual name was Leong Khuen. His internal force came mainly from his training of Thit Seen Khuen, or Iron Wire Set.

Wong Yein Lam was a master of Hap Ka (Family of Knights) Kungfu. Hap Ka Kungfu originated from Lama Kungfu of Tibet, but had been modified and taught by Shaolin monks or lay masters. Wong Yein Lam's teacher was a Shaolin monk called Sheng Loong.

Wong Khei Yin was a disciple of Luk Ah Choy and the father of Wong Fei Hoong. His was well known for his "no-shadow kicks".

Su Hak Fu was a master of the Black Tiger Style. He was good at the tiger-claw. "Hak Fu" actually means "Black Tiger"; it is uncertain whether it was his real name or nickname.

Su Hut Yee, which means Beggar Su, was originally rich but squandered away his money. He was a master of Hoong Ka Kungfu. He learned from Chan Fook, a monk from the southern Shaolin Monastery, and was probably the same Chan Fook who started my lineage from Uncle Righteousness. (Please see below.)

Chow Thye was well known for his staff, known as Tai Cho Chooi Wan Khun, or "Soul-Chasing Staff of the First Emperor". He shot to fame when he defeated an international boxing champion from France.

Tham Chai Wen was known as "Three-Leg Tham" because of his three kicking techniques. They were tiger-tail kick, weeping-floor kick, and organ-seeking kick.

Wong Cheng Ho was famous for his Iron Head. He learned his kungfu in a Guangdong temple from a monk belonging to the Shaolin tradition.

Tit Chee Chan means "Iron Finger Chan"; his real name was unknown. Naturally he was expert at the Iron Finger Art.

See Yu Leong was known for the Red Sand Palm. This is an advanced Shaolin art using internal force which leaves a red mark on the skin of an opponent after being struck.


Question 3
What is your Hungga lineage (I know you prefer to call your art Shaolin)? Because you practice Tiger and Crane form, there should be a connection with Wong Feihung or some of his students.


Answer 3
What I practise is Hoong Ka Kungfu, but I call it Shaolin just as my teacher, Uncle Righteousness, and other masters of the old did. (Please see above for more explanation of the terms "Hoong Ka" and "Shaolin".)

My first kungfu teacher and with whom I learned the longest was Uncle Righteousness, a honorific nickname kungfu circles bestowed on him. His real name was Lai Chin Wah, and he learned from three teachers: Ng Yew Loong, Chu Khuen and Lu Chan Wai.

Ng Yew Loong, who brought Shaolin Kungfu from China to Malaysia, learned from Chan Fook. Chan Fook learned Shaolin Kungfu as a lay disciple at the southern Shaolin Monastery. I do not know whether it was the Shaolin Monastery at Juilain Mountain or at Quanzhow, but I think it was likely to be the one at Juilian Mountain.

It was unlikely, though it was possible, that Chan Fook learned from the Venerable Chee Seen. Judging from the philosophy and practice of the kind of kungfu I have inherited from this lineage, I think the most likely teacher who taught Chan Fook was the Venerable Harng Yein, although in name The Venerable Chee Seen was the master. It is worthy of note that when I was training under Uncle Righteousness, we paid homage to the Venerable Chee Seen on our altar every night before training began.

Chan Fook was not at the monastery when it was burnt by the Qing army. He had returned to his village in Guangdong. Once a bully with his gang terrorized some villagers. Instead of fighting them, he showed them his kungfu skills. He "sat" on his Horse-Riding Stance, put his arms around a hardy tree, and uprooted it! This act put to flight the bully and his gang.

My Tiger-Crane Set, the most fundamental set in Uncle Righteousness's teaching, is different from Wong Fei Hoong's. While Wong Fei Hoong's set consists of 108 patterns, mine consists of only 36.

Yet, there are more tiger patterns and crane patterns in my 36-pattern set than in Wong Fei Hoong's 108-pattern set. This is because while most of the patterns in the longer set are repeated and are from Lohan Kungfu, all the patterns (except the salutation patterns) in the shorter set are different, and almost all of them are of the tiger or the crane patterns. More than 25 years ago, a Chinese kungfu magazine ran a series of articles with me explaining this famous set. Some pictures are reproduced here.

My other teacher who has moulded my kungfu career is Sifu Ho Fatt Nam. He learned from Yeong Fatt Kheun, who in turn learned from the Venerable Jiang Nan who was a monk in the southern Shaolin Monastery. I am not sure whether it was the monastery at Juilian Mountain or at Quanzhow, but I think it was likely to be the latter one. The Venerable Jiang Nan escaped from the southern Shaolin Monastery when it was burnt by the Qing army.

After specifically seeking a successor for about 50 years, he finally transmitted the Shaolin arts to Yeong Fatt Khuen near the Malaysian-Thailand border. After about another fifty years Yeong Fatt Khuen transmitted the Shaolin arts to Ho Fatt Nam. Following the tradition at the southern Shaolin Monastery, disciples engaged in a grand free sparring competition once a year to select "Sap Tai Tei Tze" or the Ten Great Disciples.

From an unplaced position, my master Ho Fatt Nam fought his way through the years to occupy the third position. Before Yeong Fatt Khuen passed away, he appointed Ho Fatt Nam as his successor, because the first great disciple declined due to his old age and the second returned to China for some urgent reasons. My master often told me what his master told him, "hok mo cheen hou, dai che wei seen", which is in Cantonese meaning, "there is no rule of seniority in learning; whoever achieves earlier is the more advanced".

Like my master himself before me, I was amongst his last students before his retirement. For me, the huge gap of years between generations in this lineage is a very lucky occurrence -- it enabled me to be just three generations from the original source, i.e. the southern Shaolin Monastery before its burning, despite a century and a half between in time. For most people, it would be more than ten generations.


Question 4
Who created Sap ying kyun (Shi xing quan), Five Animals Five Elements Set of Hung style?


Answer 4
Traditionally there is Ng Yein Kheun, or Five-Animal Set, and no Sap Yein Kheun (literally Ten-Form Fist), although in Shaolin Kungfu besides the "five animals" of dragon, snake, tiger, leopard and crane, some masters mention five other minor animals, namely lion, elephant, horse, monkey and jaguar.

But the famous kungfu actor of Hong Kong, Kwan Tuck Hein,. a kungfu master who acted as Wong Fei Hoong in a long series of movie films in the 1950s and 60s, invented Sap Yein Khuen, or Ten-Form Set. He combined the five animals of Shaolin with the five elemental processes of metal, water, wood, fire and earth.

These five elemental processes are from Lohan Kungfu. The metal, water, wood, fire and earth processes represent respectively separating, swinging, closing, thrusting and sinking. For example, if an opponent holds your two wrists, you first cross your wrists then separate them with a flick of your arms, yours is a manifestation of the metal process.

The five Shaolin animals and five elemental processes are already found in the 108-pattern Tiger- Crane Set of Hoong Ka Kungfu. Hence, while this Ten-Form Set is a new addition to the repertoire of kungfu sets, it does not add anything new to the philosophy and methods of Hoong Ka Kungfu.

While Kwan Tuck Hein acted extremely well as Wong Fei Hoong, and demonstrated genuine Shaolin (or Hoong Ka) Kungfu in his movies, it is generally not known that he himself was a White Crane Kungfu master. There are actually many styles of White Crane Kungfu, and the one of Kwan Tuck Hein is similar to Lama Kungfu and Hap Ka (Family of Knights) Kungfu, which had their origins in Tibet, with their characteristic techniques of long arms and close fists resembling the wings of a crane, and which are different from the comparatively shorter range techniques of Hoong Ka or the White Crane Kungfu of Fujian Shaolin.

[FIRE HAWK]

http://www.geocities.com/wahnam/ans-3/oct98-2.html

[FIRE HAWK]

http://www.geocities.com/wahnam/ans-3/dec98-2.html

[FIRE HAWK]

http://www.geocities.com/~wahnam/ans-5/nov99-1.html

[FIRE HAWK]

http://www.geocities.com/~wahnam/ans-5/nov99-2.html

[illusionfist]

I think i'm gonna have to disagree with the part that says Kwan Tak Hing made up the Sup Ying Kuen. He did make up a Ten Forms Set, but it looks nothing like the Sup Ying Kuen of Hung Gar.

Peace :D

[WongFeHung]

Wong Fei-Hung's surname is WONG, you dolt! As in WONG Kay-Ying, and WONG-Tai ! sheesh!
The surname Hung was taken by Hung Hei Guan, who's surname was Jue. The surname Hung was the name of Hung Mo-Jue, the first emperor of the Ming Dynasty, who's lineage was ended by the Chings.
Wong Fei-Hung did infact refer to his art as Hung Kuen, as did his father. The tem Hung-Ga was popularized later by his disciples, and also to distinguish it from other lineages of Hung Kuen, BUT Siu Lum Hung Kuen is still synonomous with Hung-Ga.
The original three main forms of Hung-Ga are Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen, Ng Ying Kuen, and Tiet Sien Kuen, but now since Wong Fei-Hung, Fu-Hok Seurng Ying Kuen makes up the fourth. These are the major forms of Hung-Ga. Lam Sai-Wing added the "minor" forms.

[FIRE HAWK]

TenTigers i am not a Dolt i did not write this information,i cutted and pasted the information from Wong Kiew Kits,questiones and answers website i did not write a word of it just cutted and pasted it.Blame Wong Kiew Kit he wrote the this stuff.And i know Wong Fei Hungs last name is Wong.Go look at Wong Kiew Kits questions and answers section on the links that i posted above it was a ***** to go through the questions and answers section to put all this **** togethor.I did not write any of this stuff Wong Kiew Kit Did.

[WongFeHung]

ok, ...I'm sorry....you're not a dolt for printing it.....but ya did read an awful lot of it! I'm betting that wong kiew kit is a pen name for some gwailo who just compiles stuff and prints it in books, like that Jaamal guy, who copies stuff from old issues of inside kung-fu and shaw bros, movies and passes it off as his own books., But then again....I'm one of the dolts who bought those books!

[Inquisitor]

From your post, I take it that you are a beginner, and hence do not know who Wong Kiew Kit is. You might want to do a little research before you start calling people "gwailo" by name. BTW, we're in the 21st Century now. Haven't you heard? Racism is out.

[denali]

TenTigers: Wong Kiew Kit never said that Hung was Wong Fei Hung's surname was Hung. He said that the Hung in his name was a different character...but sounds the same as others. Read it again..

[denali]

oops. bad grammar. i'm illiterate too.

[premier]

You gotta shorten your posts!

[sifuchuck]

Thanks for all the work you put into this topic, Fire Hawk. The many and varied historic accounts detailing the origins of Hung Gar are of the greatest interest to me. Anyone who has spent even a little time researching Hung Gar's past realizes that there are as many different versions as there are schools.

When my first students started their club in 1995 and asked me to teach them, one of the first provisions they wrote into their by-laws included this statement:
"The purpose of the club is not only to learn
Chinese martial arts, but also to learn about
its rich history and traditions.
"Kung Fu schools pass on an oral history
that is sometimes vague and mysterious and tends
to conflict with the history of other Kung Fu
schools. In some cases it is considered disrespectful to question the validity of a school’s historic accounts.
"As a non-profit club, disassociated from
any particular school, we can freely conduct
research to discover the truth behind the legends
and stories that surround Kung Fu while
maintaining a position of respect toward all Kung
Fu Sifus as well as their schools and students."

Over the past six years, the kids have learned that the "truth behind the legends" is not so easy to discover. But thanks to people like you who continue to search out and share your findings, we can add to our rich reservoir of knowledge and understanding.

Thanks again,

Chuck Carroll
Sifu, Whitefish Bay Kung Fu Club

[tnwingtsun]

By no means shorten your posts,in this day of trolls and bs threads yours are nice reads,
even though you cut and paste,your intentions
seem well.

Although I don't agree with all of the history
other perspectives are a welcome consideration.

One of my favorites in your artical was......

"The Venerable Harng Yien was the most senior as well the foremost of Chee Seen's disciples. Unlike the others who were frequently involved in fighting, he was also the most peace-loving. He placed spiritual cultivation far above combat efficiency. Paradoxically, or perhaps because of this spiritual focus, he was also the best fighter among the ten."

Worth a re-print




:cool: