Is Wing Chun Internal?

[Scott]

I don't think so. What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact, not preference or fond wishes.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[Scott]

Here's mine. I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.

1) Other internal stylists definetly think that Wing Chun is externally based, using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves. This could probably be discounted, though, because what does a Bagua man know about Wing Chun? But still worthy of consideration.

2) Historically, not counting the Yim Wing Chun LEGEND (it may be true, but we know that Wing Chun was in existence over 200 years before Yim Wing Chun was alive. However, she probably did make the system famous and rename it after herself. Wing Chun is a system probably made to teach groups of peasants how to fight in a short amount of time--this explains why 80% of the training involves two people--you're teaching two people something at the same time, which is faster and leads to actual combat skills in shorter amounts of time.
Also, Wing Chun was made presumably with the idea of cutting out uneconomical moves from traditional southern styles--internal styles are mostly comprised of moves that seem uneconomical when compared to 'combat reality' moves. I think the people who created Wing Chun were probably seen much as we see combat realists/MMA people in our times.
3) Most of ideas regarding Wing Chun as an internal style seem to branch from the first 6 moves of Sil Lim Tao, which are done extremely slow. When asked why it is done so slow, many people assume it is done slow for the same reasons Tai Chi sets are done slow (and they are at about the same pace,) which is to collect and store and cultivate Chi. Well, this isn't necessarily the case--and even seems unlikely, since there are no other slow moves in the entire system.
A more plausible explanation is that in Sil Lim Tao, you are learning the very basics of Wing Chun, and thus the base that all the rest of your knowledge stems from. If you learn to perform all of your moves perfectly from the start, you will have a strong foundation on which to base your skills. Now, think again. Why are the punches done 3 times, slow motion, and then 3 more at the end? Which move are you most likely to be doing the most in your Wing Chun career? The straight punch is the heart of Wing Chun, coming from the centerline to your opponent's centerline--the poetic basis of Wing Chun--Heart to Heart.
Look at the other slow moves--(their chinese names escape me, so I will use English descriptions to explain them) the tan sau, the hand ridge block (god, why can't I remember it's Chinese name? =P I know I know it,) and the hooking block. TThe hand ridge block and the Tan block and the hooking hand block are three of the four root blocks, from which every other Wing Chun block is based off of. The only block not present in these three moves that comprises one of the root blocks is the Bong Sau, which sort of makes sense, since the Bong Sau has no other blocks which resemble it--it sort of stands alone. The slow returning ridge hand block builds up arm strength, and once again it is teaching you the EXACT positioning for the blocks so that your base for learning Wing Chun is strong.

Those are my points. What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[lance]

Here's mine. I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.

1) Other internal stylists definetly think that Wing Chun is externally based, using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves. This could probably be discounted, though, because what does a Bagua man know about Wing Chun? But still worthy of consideration.

2) Historically, not counting the Yim Wing Chun LEGEND (it may be true, but we know that Wing Chun was in existence over 200 years before Yim Wing Chun was alive. However, she probably did make the system famous and rename it after herself. Wing Chun is a system probably made to teach groups of peasants how to fight in a short amount of time--this explains why 80% of the training involves two people--you're teaching two people something at the same time, which is faster and leads to actual combat skills in shorter amounts of time.
Also, Wing Chun was made presumably with the idea of cutting out uneconomical moves from traditional southern styles--internal styles are mostly comprised of moves that seem uneconomical when compared to 'combat reality' moves. I think the people who created Wing Chun were probably seen much as we see combat realists/MMA people in our times.
3) Most of ideas regarding Wing Chun as an internal style seem to branch from the first 6 moves of Sil Lim Tao, which are done extremely slow. When asked why it is done so slow, many people assume it is done slow for the same reasons Tai Chi sets are done slow (and they are at about the same pace,) which is to collect and store and cultivate Chi. Well, this isn't necessarily the case--and even seems unlikely, since there are no other slow moves in the entire system.
A more plausible explanation is that in Sil Lim Tao, you are learning the very basics of Wing Chun, and thus the base that all the rest of your knowledge stems from. If you learn to perform all of your moves perfectly from the start, you will have a strong foundation on which to base your skills. Now, think again. Why are the punches done 3 times, slow motion, and then 3 more at the end? Which move are you most likely to be doing the most in your Wing Chun career? The straight punch is the heart of Wing Chun, coming from the centerline to your opponent's centerline--the poetic basis of Wing Chun--Heart to Heart.
Look at the other slow moves--(their chinese names escape me, so I will use English descriptions to explain them) the tan sau, the hand ridge block (god, why can't I remember it's Chinese name? =P I know I know it,) and the hooking block. TThe hand ridge block and the Tan block and the hooking hand block are three of the four root blocks, from which every other Wing Chun block is based off of. The only block not present in these three moves that comprises one of the root blocks is the Bong Sau, which sort of makes sense, since the Bong Sau has no other blocks which resemble it--it sort of stands alone. The slow returning ridge hand block builds up arm strength, and once again it is teaching you the EXACT positioning for the blocks so that your base for learning Wing Chun is strong.

Those are my points. What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

Scott , to me WC is both an internal and external system , you know why ? You pretty much explained it in the Sil Lum Tao form , that when it ' s done slow like tai chi that ' s the internal part of WC , now you mentioned about the 3 punches ?
Lets say the attacker throws a right punch aiming for your face area you throw your own right punch at his face too , but deflecting his punch away from your face , from there you throw 2 more punches . This comes from Sifu Gary Lam .

The external part is when you use those WC moves for fighting like the taun sao ,
pak sao , bong sao , downward pak sao , fook sao , huen sao . And the 2 forms Chum Kiu and bil jee . The chum Kiu contains techniques for breaking the attackers' elbows , and the throwing moves which comes from the twisting of your entire body , and the kicking techniques . BIL JEE also is unique too using the fingers to strike at the different parts of the attackers' body . Bil Jee also contains kicks too as well as the kwan sao and using the elbows in a different ways just like Chum Kiu , bil jee , and sil lum tao . So each form has something to offer the individual person . Wong Shun Leung say the Sil Lum Tao form should be done very slowely to get the internal benefits , even Augustine Fong emphasize on the samething too . Ip Man would do this form for 1 hour to get the internal benefits .

When you fight using WC you would just move into the opponent as he attacks you . WC is known for it ' s agressive fighting ways . You develop internal power by practicing the Sil Lum Tao form , to develop the external power you condition your hands by striking at wall bags and punch it too and train in the SLT stance with your hands by your waist . To gain internal power .

Other than what I mentioned if possible train on the wooden dummy that ' ll condition the external part of the body . If you can inflict damage on your attackers' first punch , it ' ll make him walk away from fighting with you , because he ' ll feel the contact anyway , if he ' s smart . If he thinks that he can handle your punishment then he ' s stupid . I ' m also speaking from experiences . On the history of WC I do agree with you .

The WC book by GM Chueng talks about the SLT form in the body theres' accupunture meridians lines , The moves of the SLT form when you do it slow it circulates the internal chi to move through the meridians of your accupuncture points . You can also massage it to heal yourself and other methods which the book Chi Power explains .

[Graham H]

Wong Shun Leung say the Sil Lum Tao form should be done very slowely to get the internal benefits

When WSL said "internal benefits" he meant that what you are thinking is important! WSL did not believe in "chi" according to people I have spoke to that knew him. Ving Tsun is not like Tai Chi!!!

Your ideas about SLT, CK MYJ and BJ are totally different to the WSL lineage.

GH

[lance]

When WSL said "internal benefits" he meant that what you are thinking is important! WSL did not believe in "chi" according to people I have spoke to that knew him. Ving Tsun is not like Tai Chi!!!

Your ideas about SLT, CK MYJ and BJ are totally different to the WSL lineage.

GH

When WSL said "internal benefits " he meant that what you are thinking is important ! So what are you really suppose to be thinking then ?

WSL did ' nt believe in " chi " according to people I have spoken to that knew him .

Then why does Sifu Gary Lam stress in breathing as you do the SLT set to keep your chi alive ? Why would Sifu Lam stress on chi , when Sifu wong did ' nt believe in chi then ?

Sure Ving Tsun is not like Tai Chi , because the movements are different that ' s why . Tai chi too it can go slow or it can go fast , depending on the situation itself .

My ideas concerning the 3 - sets of WC talks about what the sets has to offer the person that ' s it , and the WSL lineage is the samething .

And there are 2 types of chi the soft and the hard , the SLT set uses the soft chi .
the hard chi you can use it to fight . And kung fu without chi training will just be a physical exercise used for self defense , and if you don ' t beleive in chi too bad for you . Chi does work , you just have ' nt been able to experience it yet .

[GlennR]

Here's mine. I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.

1) Other internal stylists definetly think that Wing Chun is externally based, using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves. This could probably be discounted, though, because what does a Bagua man know about Wing Chun? But still worthy of consideration.

2) Historically, not counting the Yim Wing Chun LEGEND (it may be true, but we know that Wing Chun was in existence over 200 years before Yim Wing Chun was alive. However, she probably did make the system famous and rename it after herself. Wing Chun is a system probably made to teach groups of peasants how to fight in a short amount of time--this explains why 80% of the training involves two people--you're teaching two people something at the same time, which is faster and leads to actual combat skills in shorter amounts of time.
Also, Wing Chun was made presumably with the idea of cutting out uneconomical moves from traditional southern styles--internal styles are mostly comprised of moves that seem uneconomical when compared to 'combat reality' moves. I think the people who created Wing Chun were probably seen much as we see combat realists/MMA people in our times.
3) Most of ideas regarding Wing Chun as an internal style seem to branch from the first 6 moves of Sil Lim Tao, which are done extremely slow. When asked why it is done so slow, many people assume it is done slow for the same reasons Tai Chi sets are done slow (and they are at about the same pace,) which is to collect and store and cultivate Chi. Well, this isn't necessarily the case--and even seems unlikely, since there are no other slow moves in the entire system.
A more plausible explanation is that in Sil Lim Tao, you are learning the very basics of Wing Chun, and thus the base that all the rest of your knowledge stems from. If you learn to perform all of your moves perfectly from the start, you will have a strong foundation on which to base your skills. Now, think again. Why are the punches done 3 times, slow motion, and then 3 more at the end? Which move are you most likely to be doing the most in your Wing Chun career? The straight punch is the heart of Wing Chun, coming from the centerline to your opponent's centerline--the poetic basis of Wing Chun--Heart to Heart.
Look at the other slow moves--(their chinese names escape me, so I will use English descriptions to explain them) the tan sau, the hand ridge block (god, why can't I remember it's Chinese name? =P I know I know it,) and the hooking block. TThe hand ridge block and the Tan block and the hooking hand block are three of the four root blocks, from which every other Wing Chun block is based off of. The only block not present in these three moves that comprises one of the root blocks is the Bong Sau, which sort of makes sense, since the Bong Sau has no other blocks which resemble it--it sort of stands alone. The slow returning ridge hand block builds up arm strength, and once again it is teaching you the EXACT positioning for the blocks so that your base for learning Wing Chun is strong.

Those are my points. What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

Funny, after being shouted down for being a troll (ie anti-internal) and how i was wrecking an internal thread, i go back to the original poster who had the above to say.

So my dear internalists......as Scott asked a decade ago.... what are your points of support that says WC is internal?

Oh, and saying it is doesnt make it so

[Watchman]

>>>What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?<<<

Because Ip Ching says so, and as the great Cookie Monster once said, "That's good enough for me."

BTW, didn't we already discuss this in the "SLT fast or slow" thread?

>>>I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.<<<

You didn't state any "facts".

>>>What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact<<<

No, I don't want to. :D

Watchman&reg;

[Sam]

Siu Lin Tao (Little Transmutation) Golden Bell Heavy Hei-Gung.
Chum Kue (Depressing Bridge)Light skills Hei-Gung.
Biu Gee (Darting, Thrusting, Penetrating Fingers)Dim Mak extending Chi.
All forms utilize internal energy tork and Fa Ging. www.buddhapalm.com

[Mattador]

Siu Lin Tao (Little Transmutation) Golden Bell Heavy Hei-Gung.
Chum Kue (Depressing Bridge)Light skills Hei-Gung.
Biu Gee (Darting, Thrusting, Penetrating Fingers)Dim Mak extending Chi.
All forms utilize internal energy tork and Fa Ging. www.buddhapalm.com

Sam,
Get your head out the clouds. I really hope you are joking. Gullible is in the dictionary.

[Hendrik]

Since ancient time,


External just means application and raw physical center martial art system.

Internal just means holistic center martial art system.




Why is that an issue at all?

is Wing Chun an Internal art? yes, because it is a holistic center system.

Look at the three sets, the first is for body mind and structure cultivation, the second and third for dynamic structure and applications cultivation.


There is no issue at all, the sets have define and tell what it is.





with human is model as a biomechanics, then,
Qi involve because Qi and breathing is the Chemistry within the Biomechanics ; where physical body is the mechanics within the biomechanics; and intention is the electrical system within the biomechanics.

To make things holistics all of above are address since these components made up the biomechanics or human.





The emei and white crane comes into the picture is only to solve "how" and "what type of platform" the Wing Chun kuen is designed. so that one could effectively activate the Wing Chun kuen sets or process. I personally dont even care if it from chicken fist or monkey fist or Taiji or Wu dang, it has to activate the sets that is the bottom line.




The issues for Wing Chuner are not to argue with something has been defined, but to both find out the depth and evolve the biomechanics and the applications.


simple stuffs why makes it complicated.


look at my other thread, Prio to Wing Chun, and see for yourself what is going on.

anyone wants to know how is Wing Chun sets internal come visit me and see for yourself.

[edward]

wing chun is definitely an internal art.

[nasmedicine]

wing chun is definitely an internal art.

I agree, it is absolutely internal. To think otherwise would be outright silly.

[Hardwork108]

I agree, it is absolutely internal. To think otherwise would be outright silly.

Thank you!

[anerlich]

To think otherwise would be outright silly.

Not as silly as making a blanket assertion with no evidence to back it up.

[Hardwork108]

Not as silly as making a blanket assertion with no evidence to back it up.

Usually, those of us who ACTUALLY practice the TCMAs are the ones who have the evidence.


Those who do NOT actually practice the TCMAs, and have NEVER practiced them in their lives, inspite of what their egos want to believe, will never have the evidence they so desperatly seek.