WC knife defense

[Vio]

The way traditional arts deal with knives seem to get quite a bit of critiscism from some authors.
So I was was just thinking of what I was taught in WC. Basically we were taught to grab the wrist with both hands after he tries to strike, then applying a chin na lock (we learnt a cool way to redirect the blade towards the attacker while hes still holding it) or takedown if you like and then disarming the blade.
I'd like to know if this is the proper WC method and if it is very realistic?

[Brodie Bortigno]

A good way to test the effectiveness of a knife drill (or so I am told) is to have in your hand, instead of a knife, a large white board marker or similar. Then have the VT guy try and disarm the attacker with the marker/knife and have the attacker try his darndest to cut and kill the VT guy. What usually happens is, as the VT guy is applying this lock or that lock, or pak sauing here or there, the attacker has basically cut his hands off and removed his kidneys. This little experiment basically nullifies the effectiveness of 99% of knife fighting drills.

I won't go into what does work myself because I've never been in that situation. However, there is an article that deals with it and I'll track it down for you. I do know one thing though, and it's more common sense than martial skill: if he has a knife and you have room, run for your life. It's not worth it. If he hits you just once in the body, you may die.

It is dealt with, very briefly, by Wong Shun Leung in an interview with Clive Potter here: http://www.wongvingtsun.co.uk/download.htm

You may need to do a bit of searching, I'm afraid.

If you can't find it, here's the quote:

"How does Wing Chun approach knife fighting?

"... Wong Shun Leung said Wing Chun does not send you out to get killed. Even if you can defend against 80% of knife attacks, the rest will get you killed. Alot of defenses are not realistic because the knife can twist around. Sometimes a kick to the hand is used."

Emphasis must be placed on "sometimes". Everytime you see a knife doesn't mean you must kick it. It was just an example.

[Vio]

Wong's stuff is always a good read. I had pretty much the same conclusion that nothing really works against an armed enemy.
However if you "have" to fight an armed attacker you would have to know where all your major arteries are located and defend those with your life. You can take few cuts on the outside of the hands and forearm goin in to control the blade.

[anerlich]

I'd like to know if this is the proper WC method and if it is very realistic?

I don't think there is a "proper WC method" other than to never engage with a knife wielder if you can possibly avoid it; get a bigger weapon if you can't, and if that fails ... never give up.

I think your response probably is the best of a bad lot - basically unarmed against a weapon all your options suck. Control the weapon and try to pulverise the attacker.

IMO standard WC defenses against open hand attacks are poor choices against a blade.

[Brodie Bortigno]

If you absolutely must fight this guy then get that knife as far away from you as possible. Subtelty in dealing with open hands goes out the window: knives can twist and slash and stab while the open hands are basically harmless when fully extended or without the power of the body behind them. Knives are not so. Keep that knife away and hit him until you have enough room to run.

[wentwest]

If I had no other weapon at my disposal, and nothing that could be improvised, and I couldn't run or otherwise escape, I would try to use a jacket or even the shirt off my back to try to wrap up and trap the knife & knife hand asap. It's better than bare hands. I would then do my best to beat the MF'r to within an inch of his life.

[Brodie Bortigno]

Right. If there is a bin or a stick or a piece of pipe or a jacket or something that doesn't die when it's stabbed then make use of it. Even if he doesn't have a knife and you see a piece of steel pipe laying at your feet, pick it up and belt him. Open handing the guy is a last resort, really.

[panos]

I recently took up kali lessons, and even though i am at the beegining i'v seen many things about their attitude against knife,
and the generall way they move.

their hand moves have the same philosophy with wing chun. They have moves similar to kan sao, tan sao, bill sao, tsun sao, larp sao.

The only thing they dont pay attention is the centerline. Thats why the are very vulnerable against WC in unarmed combat.

With a knife of course things are opposite. You cant block a knife the same way. You cant block a knife period. The only think you can do is to "drive" the hand at the same direction it was going. That completely disorganizes the attacker and gives you a chance of dissarming.

You CANNOT dissarm a knife with the first touch if the attacker knows even the basics about using a knife.

But if Kaliers (sic!) can use their moves effectively against knifes so can wing chuners (sic1 #2) (similar moves) if only we change the angles a bit and forget a little about centerline when defencing (and remember them when striking back).

The other advantage they get is that since they completely ignore the centerline theory in unarmed combat they are used to faster, bigger and more agile steps in order to avoid hits.(kind like a boxer). We may not need that but when it gets to knifes they keep the steps they are used to and we have to change them.

[Keng Geng]

How can a system of martial art with so few forms including only 2 weapons forms, one of which is a set blades, not have defenses against weapons!??

Come on guys, think about it.... that's ridiculous. And do you notice that 90% of the wing chun schools put so little focus on the weapons, most of all the blades? Hmmm.... makes you wonder, I hope. So, once again, as with so many of the other aspects of Wing Chun, that are integral, but not known - just because the teacher doesn't know it, does not mean it's not there.

How much training do you and/or your sifu put into the knives? How much of it is forms? How much of it is the bat cham do drills? And I don't mean the blades against the pole - blades against blades? And if you don't know them, then you don't have an answer to the nature of this thread - how WC deals with a knife.

[wentwest]

Originally posted by Keng Geng
How can a system of martial art with so few forms including only 2 weapons forms, one of which is a set blades, not have defenses against weapons!??

Come on guys, think about it.... that's ridiculous. And do you notice that 90% of the wing chun schools put so little focus on the weapons, most of all the blades? Hmmm.... makes you wonder, I hope. So, once again, as with so many of the other aspects of Wing Chun, that are integral, but not known - just because the teacher doesn't know it, does not mean it's not there.

How much training do you and/or your sifu put into the knives? How much of it is forms? How much of it is the bat cham do drills? And I don't mean the blades against the pole - blades against blades? And if you don't know them, then you don't have an answer to the nature of this thread - how WC deals with a knife.

Can't speak for others, but in my school TWC (William Cheung lineage) we do practice knife disarming techniques. They're good techniques too, but that doesn't mean that in a real situation, I'm not going to use every advantage I have... as in improvised weapons, a jacket as mentioned above etc. Bare handed against knife is a LAST resort - even though we train it in our WC school.

I also don' t see any problem with training in other systems for additional weapon (and against weapon) proficiency. In fact I think it's wise. Just because WC does have techniques for disarming an attacker with a knife DOESN'T mean I'm bound to not look beyond it for additional skill proficiency in theis area. FMA's are great. Sayoc Kali is some serious stuff regarding knife tactics, etc.

[Ernie]

keng geng
blades against blades
and blade against pole

to be honest i have yet to see anything near the clarity in filipino systems

sure i know forms and partner drills
even senisitivty drills with in wing chun weapons

but because they adhear to certian body structure dynamics there will be limitations

i have also seen this problem in some filipino systems that are trapped by the triangle as well to be fair

that being said

if people would spar with the weapons and toss those ridiculas forms
you would see much growth
it still bust me up on how people try and perfect forms , get that perfect pose
in respect to what ?
there is no person in front of you moving and trying to hit you
pretend fighting will only make you great at pretending

but at least wing chun offers a suggestion

i think it's up to the individual to take the next step in progression

problem is you might find out you suck and people have a hard time dealing with that

[KenWingJitsu]

Basically we were taught to grab the wrist with both hands after he tries to strike

Just so you know, that doesnt work at all. lol. The room for error is...well, all you gotta do is test it with a marker. You do need to control the weapon hand, but not by grabbing the wrist as he tries to strike.

[Keng Geng]

I find that people who don't put enough emphasis on forms, suck all around, and those who put too much emphasis suck all around. One needs to understand the relationship forms have to the rest of Wing Chun, and vice versa.

Understanding the role of the forms is key, as much as understanding the role of other aspects of WC. Dismissing any one aspect is a mistake that one may never come to understand. Dismissing any one part and proporting to know Wing Chun is a huge injustice to your students.

Dismissing it as 'pretending' clearly indicates a lack of understanding of Wing Chun as a whole.

[Ernie]

Dismissing it as 'pretending' clearly indicates a lack of understanding of Wing Chun as a whole.


ha ha love this guy

doing form for the sake of imitating a motion is just empty
these shapes and ideas mean nothing until you have personal experience with them

so gain experience is the key

a tan bong or fook , is just a static position until you have a live enviroment were you find it's use ,

beyond getting basic mechnical motion sitting there pretending is just a waste of time ,

ergo many people doing forms many people suck can't move or adapt to a non wing chun enviroment

but once you aquire extensive experience in application
then when you do your form it's meaning ful

until then it's just watching paint dry

doing forms with weapons is even worse since things happen much quicker and the price of being static is much higher

but i know many traditionalist will cling on to pretend stuff it offerrs a safty factor

[[[[Dismissing any one part and proporting to know Wing Chun is a huge injustice to your students.]]]]

filling students head with nonsense and stories is the injustice
teaching them to die is another

if it is not consitant and easy to apply and most of natural then it doesn't belong

keeping things just because and never making them prove themselves is a true in justice and weakens the art as a whole

more of a put up or shut up role in my book .
but then again i have no love for tradition i only care for what is proven efffective and has a high consisitancy rate

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Ernie
beyond getting basic mechnical motion sitting there pretending is just a waste of time

There are deeper aspects to develop - like the energies.

but once you aquire extensive experience in application then when you do your form it's meaning ful

What exactly are you acquiring. It seems that is where the 'pretending' lies. You're 'pretending' to be in a fight...?!

doing forms with weapons is even worse since things happen much quicker and the price of being static is much higher

Agreed but who said anything about static forms?

if it is not consitant and easy to apply and most of natural then it doesn't belong

Oh yes... the natural thinker. I keep forgetting.

keeping things just because and never making them prove themselves is a true in justice and weakens the art as a whole

Absolutely agree. But it seems that problem lies on your end, not mine. You have your sifu(s), I have mine.
If you have any questions you'd like to ask him, I can give you his number?