Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Falcor]

You know, if you do see earnest practitioners of a cr@ppy art (good people, but they're just doing cr@ppy stuff), how do you...enlighten them that what they are doing is, well - BAD - without insuling them? They, being good people, are of the opinoin that it is the artist and not the art (and I can't fault them for that attitude), and that everyone does what they like and suits them each follows his own path. Fine, but then again, some things are so blatantly wrong! Dilemma...

...don't think you are, know you are...

[illusionfist]

I have been faced with this dilemma myself and it was really hard to make the decision i did. I opted not to tell the people what they were practicing was straight up fake. I took a lot of factors into account, the major one was that most of the students were what i would call a "Rec Martial Artist", someone who is not in it for the long haul and they are just kind of dabbling. Later on it all worked out cuz i saw many of them outside of their training atmosphere and every single one of them told me that they had a suspicion, so they left.

I was really torn by the whole thing in the beginning, but it all worked out in the end. If i were presented with the problem again, i would have to look at all the factors before i made my decision. I think that certain situations would necessitate an immediate answer. It is good that most of the people left that one school, because the teacher is now teaching Falun Gong material. I think that in some instances people need to learn on their own. Its part of the path.

Peace :D

[Waidan]

You don't necessarily need to tell them "your kung fu is very not good." With many people, this will invoke a defensive response, and end any constructive conversation on the subject (of course this isn't true of everyone, I'm generalizing).

Maybe a better approach is to offer to box with them a bit (in a friendly manner obviously). Once they realize they're being uprooted and handled like a chew-toy, they'll probably draw their own conclusion regarding the authenticity of their training.

As a classmate would often say, "It's easier to show then tell."

[Falcor]

You're right of course, I wouldn't just go up to them and say "your kung fu no good! Let me show you the power of real Chinese pugilism." And most are what I would call dabblers as well, and hopefully when they get exposed to some real stuff they'll wake up and smell the fishes. But this is what happened once; I was at a tournament, and met this really nice, very cool guy. He's wearing the white gi and is a brown belt in Shaolin-Doh. But he's a swell fellow, he even lends his opponents some of his own extra sparring gear when they fall short. Anyway, I see him on the floor and he moves well, and he performs admirably, but WHAT he does is just...cr@ap. Of course I didn't say anything - just offered my good luck and complimented him on a good effort. But inside I wanted to scream "dude, that is not shaolin kung fu, that ain't kung fu!!!" Makes me think of something my teacher told me once: good kung fu done well speaks well of the teacher and the student. Good kung fu done badly speaks ill of both student and teacher. Now, bad kung fu done badly is...well, you get the picture. But bad kung fu done well speaks well of the student but ill of the teacher.

...don't think you are, know you are...

[Waidan]

Yeah, I get what you're saying. That is pretty tough. I think in a tournament situation, I'd be very hesitant to say anything too (don't want to take the guy out of his game, or ruin his enjoyment). However, I think in a more relaxed setting I'd try to extend some help.

[JJMantis]

The last issue on KFQ, with Master Chan on the front, in the article about Shaolin-Do. If you didn't, listen to this. The Shaolin-Do people take a big trip to China to visit the long lost southern shaolin temple. They get there and of course, find wushu. duh! It's almost not worth saying. But they go on to say that since the shaolin wushu of China doesn't look like their style, that is the reason why the Chinese wushu is incorrect. Because we all must agree that shaolin-do is pure and unadultered. Amazing. Why don't they compare themselves to the multitudes of Shaolin outside of China? Lineages from the many authentic masters who fled from the cultural revolution?

[Radhnoti]

This is my first post. I've REALLY enjoyed reading the posts in this forum. Very informative. When I signed up for the forum I was a bit surprised that one of the rules was to not put down any other styles though...especially considering some of the comments in this specific thread. Let me say upfront that I've been studying Shaolin-Do for just the past 6 months...having said this, I feel I can provide a different perspective than what's been offered so far.
First, the Japanese "cover" of the style. My understanding is that our style's second Grandmaster (Ie Chang Ming) was forced to flee into Indonesia during the fall of the Manchu dynasty. Indonesians (at that time...maybe even now, not sure) hated the Chinese and everything Chinese, but not Japan. Grandmaster Ie went "underground" so to speak and adopted the outside appearance of a Japanese style without changing the content of the system. Karate gis were worn, a karate belt ranking system was implemented and the "do" was added to the system name. Upon Shaolin-Do reaching the U.S. some thought was given to switching to kung fu style uniforms, but Grandmaster Sin The' decided to keep the gi as a nod to the history of our style. (I'm sure that the practicality of the gi was also a factor.)
JJMantis mentioned that in the KFQ article the Shaolin-Do students weren't very happy with the Wu Shu forms they see the current Shaolin temple inhabitants perform. The artice goes on to state that two "elderly gentlemen" stand up and perform routines that the visitors are familiar with, and are given a standing ovation.
My understanding is that Shaolin-Do is taught in such a way as to be progressively more difficult. The lower belt ranks have a specific curriculum for advancement and Grandmaster Sin's book states that, "Below brown belt, it is assumed that the student is studying for the purpose of learning some self defense only. At brown belt, it is now assumed that the student is serious about the style as an art form." From first brown you start to get choices about the forms you study for advancement. Most of the black belts I've met seem to have a "specialty" they seem to focus upon. My teacher has learned six of the tiger forms, his teacher seems to be focused upon Tai Chi forms that are mandatory for advancing beyond first black. I hope that johan moves into the realm of brown belt and finds that the "less serious" and unprepared students fall by the wayside as he is shown more and more that piques his interest.
Finally, concerning Grandmaster Sin The', I've been witness to some of his behavior that I found odd. But, I've been operating under the assumption that since he comes from a different culture, religion and base language than me it's probably simply a communication problem. I know that he smiles a lot, and upon passing my two year old son he stopped to lean down and pat his head and say "hi". I've never heard HIM talk about the things he can do, it's always one of his higher ranking black belts. He's been there for all my belt tests so far (how many Grandmasters with as many schools to oversee as Grandmaster Sin could say the same?) and made a point to talk with the students, even asking us if we wanted to go to eat with him at a local restaurant. In short, he seems to be a great person. A friend of mine went to Grandmaster Sin's tournament in Lexington and had the fortune to see the Grandmaster spar. This is a man almost in his sixties, but his movements were supposed to be really impressive. One fellow that tried to sweep his legs was shocked as Grandmaster Sin jumped over his head. Snapping out 3 kicks while jumping through the air, seeming to "glide" forward, sending Master Leonard sailing through the air almost as soon as contact was made. :)
Wish I'd seen it.
I hope I've given some of you a glimpse into the martial art I've been fortunate enough to begin studying. And thanks for plowing through this whole post. :D

-Radhnoti

[JJMantis]

I will admit I haven't met or seen shaolin-do personally, is there any input from others that have met, trained, or touched hands with them? I just read all I could on the net, and independantly (before coming to this board) have seemed to come to the same conclusion as the others here. One thing they definitly have is a lot of material. IMHO too much material. But if can do 100 forms correct and well, then you must be good, right? That being said, let's get to that history.

Karate uniforms to hide behind during exile - I can believe that. Although most kung fu people I've seen don't wear "uniforms" when training anyway, we tend to wear shoes with black pants and a t-shirt. But why continue to say "katas" with an art that uses the word "shaolin"? Also the words "bo" and "numchaku" (that's how they spelled it) are Japanese. A practicioner of Chinese kung fu would say "stick/cudgelstaff" or "rice flails". Sorry I don't know the Chinese equivalents.

http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/index.shtml

Su Kong Tai Djin was supposed to be a hermit who just had to stay in hiding in the wilderness. Why, then, did he get a professional photo taken wearing a suit?

The picture of Ie Chang Ming I saw on another site. It is a painting, and its in color. It appears to have been grey scaled to make it appear like an old photo.

[Inquisitor]

I will say the following for the benefit of those who would spend years of fruitless hard work, dedication, and training learning this so-called style.
Shaolin-Do is a style that is clouded with "legendary" history and unsubstantiated myth. None, other than "Grandmaster" Sin The have ever heard of (let alone met) Ie Chan Ming or Su Kong Tai Djin. All of the forms taught in the system of Shaolin-Do are forms that can be found in books, videos, and other forms of media. Sin The claims that Shaolin-Do is simply the sum of Shaolin Temple kungfu knowledge. However, within his so-called style he teaches non-Shaolin forms and styles, the most prominent of which are Tai Chi Chuan and those styles descended from Wudang (which was Taoist, not Buddhist). And, for the record, the Tai Chi forms taught in Shaolin-Do are not actual, legitimate forms of the family styles. They are the, for lack of a better word, *******ized forms created by the National Sport Association of the Communist Chinese government. The traditional family Tai Chi styles of Wu, Yang, Chen, etc. do not teach the new "wushu" forms as part of their curriculum. Also, Shaolin-Do practitioners are notorious for their inability to see the differences between the way in which traditional stylists perform their forms, and the way in which they perform them. A true master of kungfu is like a great painter. He may not know of all the other painters or their paintings, but if he comes across the work of another great painter, he will recognize it for what it is, great art. If this is true (and trust me when I say that it is), then why is it that those in the legitimate, traditional kungfu community see Shaolin-Do and then say to themselves "This is kungfu? No, it can't be kungfu. It must be Karate or Tae Kwon Do... ."
"Grandmaster" Sin The's prowess in kungfu is also unsubstantiated and has yet to be seen by an unbiased, impartial observer. All instances of his "great skill" that I have heard and seen have all been hearsay; "Well, I wasn't there but my master was there and he told me that it was great!" or "The older students told me that once they saw him and that he was spectacular!" None can vouch for Sin The's actual skill and knowledge, and none can say that his lineage is real or legitimate. Even if for some reason he could not substantiate his lineage, if he had learned "real" kungfu, it would be evident either through his obvious skill or the skill of his better students (which it, sadly, is not).

There is more that could be said, but I'll leave it at this. If you are a practitioner of Shaolin-Do, or are considering learning the so-called "style," do not waste your time. Find a legitimate style and a legitimate master under which to learn. You will be wasting your hard-earned money and will be dedicating your life to something that is fake and will be of no real benefit to yourself.

[joedoe]

I have never trained or seen Shaolin-Do before either. All I can say is that if you enjoy it and it is working for you, then stick with it. Having seen the clips, I'd have to say that it doesn't look like my cup of tea.

And I'd have to say that the Japanese influence seems to extend further than just the uniforms :).

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

[Abstract]

yo no dis to anyone who practices Shaolin-Do, but after watching those vids, it looks like USSD SYNDROME :rolleyes: to me. I've legit kung fu practiced & seen some serious nonsense, & that was borderline in my eyes...To be honest, what I saw at USSD looked EXACTLY like what I was watching on those clips, that, coupled w/all the Japanese 'Kata this' & pinion that, I had to take my leave...if it works for u, then that's cool....just my 2 cents... ;)

[brassmonkey]

To be fair I've seen Tai Chi Chuan done equally as bad(well almost) from legitimate lineages.

[Oldguy]

Hey you guys-
We are all consumers. We chose to stay with our respective teachers/schools because what we were being taught made sense, hopefully. Kungfu comes in a myriad of shapes and sizes, just like its practitioners. Certain styles work better for certain people.
Now this Shaolin-do may very well have roots deep in China. Why should we dispute a claim which we would be hard pressed to prove one way or the other, just because it looks different?
If we disagree with the way a technique is performed, we should be able to explain why. That way we train eyes and mind and allow a good person to save face. If you are friends with someone who does something "strange", take him to task and ask why he does something one way and not another. He might know something you don't. There was an old German, maybe Swiss mystic, Bernhard von Clairvox(sp) who said "Lerne alles, und du wirst spaeter sehen, dass nichts ueberfluessing ist". tr. Learn everything and later you will see that nothing is superfluous.
This makes sense to me. Take care

[Royal Dragon]

Hello,
I have been perusing this post, and I am wondering if there is a Shaolin do school here in Chicago or not. I've never heard of one here, but I would like to check it out and see for myself what all the hub'bub is.

To be honest with everyone, I am a survivor of Chung Moo, so I am extreamly skeptical of anyone that claims mastery of large amounts of knowledge. The Master I am now under, Got his masters degree in the internal division of our system. although he "knows" the external division, He does not and never did claim to have mastered it. When I discuss the external aspectes of my style with him he often reminds me of his lack of mastery in that division and the fact that his specialty is the internal. This is one of the reasons why I trust him. I really could care less if he knew the whole system to the point of mastery . In fact, the fact that he doesn't, and whole heartedly admits it generates a lot of trust in me. It has allowed me to make contacts with others that DO specialize in the area's he is lacking guilt free. I know, that if I want to master the external division, he can give me the "template" to do so, but It will be up to me to do it through blood, sweat and tears.

Now, this brings me to this, I don't see how Sin The' can possibly be teaching an effective system with so much to teach. Our system, when including ALL the styles that make it up, AND the addition of styles that our 10th century founder learned prior to developing it, TOPS, AT BEST, INCLUDING VARIATIONs OF THE SAME FORMS!! has (And I am REALLY stretching it here) 100 forms. Our Tai Chi has 7 Forms (if you count the little 8 postures form and it's 4 and 8 gate varietys of practing it as 3 seperate forms), our Southern division has 6!, and our Six Step Monkey boxing has only 8 that I've heard of (do the math, you get the idea).

Now, I could, if i wanted too, memorize all those patterns in maybe a year or two (including all the stuff I'd have to make up out of thin air just to have 100 forms), But if My Master, after 30 + years has only mastered the Tai Chi himself, How on earth could I master 100 of them? Let alone 900 as claimed by this Sin The' charcter? HEll, how does he remember them all? How does he keep them pure? I Mean, when you specialize in one aspect of the system, you tend to do all the other stuff with that same flair, right?

Now, that being said, how did Sin The' do it?

I'm sure he can jump and stuff, (so can I) but does that make him special? Does patting a kids head make him a master?

I don't know guys, I'm sure he's not the Cult master my former school followed, But it sure sounds like 8 martial arts taught as one to me.

[Kymus]

This guy is a fake and a try hard. Looking at the forms, you can easily tell this. I know nothing about the forms done in the videos or if they're "done properly". I have 12 years experience in martial arts. Just by watching someone perform a form, you can tell alot about them and the system. The forms shown used alot of wide open circular repetitive movements. You see this alot in KF movies to make things seem more exaderated. Another thing is that the practitioner performs them very slopily, without much controll. Also, this thing with 900 different forms, gimmie a break, that is BS. No one has ever seen the man perform. That is a little queer. Now, some may say that he has nothing to prove to anyone. I can understand that, but, if he was smart he would do some tornaments or seminars or something to show how good he is so that he will get better recognised and gain a higher student body. The only thing I can recomend for a student of this school is to take a look at some other KF schools and see how things are really done, then look at the Shaolin Do school and ask yourself, which one seems more for real? Sin The' is nothing but a con artist, not martial about him.

-Kymus

~Crosstraining is the key~
-Sifu Rick Tucci
www.pamausa.com