Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[One student]

any remember there were no names for anything originally the didnt call a hook punch a hook punch they just demonstrated it and you did it. simple as that

So student is in class, and teacher has to demo everything everytime? What about next class, is this what happens?

Teacher: Student, do that thing I showed you last time.

Student: You mean this? (shows).

Teacher: No, that other thing.

Student: Oh, you mean this one (shows it).

Teacher: No, no, that was last week, I mean this one (shows it).

Student: Oh, now I got it.

And so on all class?

Really, at least they had, "paint the fence," or "sand the deck," or "wax on, wax off." You know, code names.

[goju]

Grandmaster Kanryo Higaonna (Higashionna was the original Okinawan pronounciation) was born on March 10, 1853, in Naha, the capital city of Okinawa. His father, Kanyo, worked as a merchant sailing between the small islands of Okinawa trading everyday goods. From a young age Kanryo Higaonna helped his father in this work and through the hard physical labor that was involved he developed a strong body. Kanryo Higaonna was still in his teens when his father died suddenly.

Higaonna began his martial arts training in 1867 in Monk Fist Boxing (Lohan Quan) from Aragaki Seisho. In 1870, at the age of 16, he traveled with his instructor to Fuzhou, China. Once in Fuzhou he studied the Chinese martial arts under the great Master RuRuKo (Xie Zhonh Xiang in Chinese). RuRuKo was the founder of Whooping Crane gongfu and was a student of Pan Yuba who, in turn, was a student of Lin Shixian, a master of White Crane gongfu. Higaonna also received instruction from numerous other gongfu masters including Wai Xinxian. Hiagaonna remained in China for a period of 5-13 years. In addition to studying empty hand and weapon arts, he also became accomplished in herbology and Chinese medicine, including acupuncture.

Chojun Miyagi (founder of Goju-Ryu and successor to Higaonna) said of Higaonna, "My sensei possessed incredible strength; the severity of the training he underwent in China is beyond comprehension.... Kanryo Sensei's speed and power were truly superhuman; his hands and feet moved faster than lightning". Words cannot express his real ability. We can only say that his skill was incredible, but even this fails to do him justice.

In the year 1881, he returned to Okinawa where his martial arts would become known as Naha-te though he always referred to it as chuanfa. Kanryo Higaonna taught these martial arts to the people of Okinawa and at the same time continued his own research and practice. In order to teach the youth of Okinawa he developed a teaching method that was specifically designed to develop the mind and body; to improve both physical well-being.

The first occasion on which the previously secretive art of Naha-te "opened" to society in general, occurred in October 1905, when Higaonna began teaching at the Naha Commercial High School. When teaching, Higaonna was an extremely hard task master. However, in his everyday life he was a quiet and humble man and one who was renowned for his virtuous character. He was a person who had no need or desire for worldly things. He leads a simple life that was devoted to the study and practice of martial arts.

There are many stories that relate tales of Kanryo Higaonna's life and training. The power of his legs was legendary so that often he was referred to as "Ashi no Higaonna", ("legs Higaonna") in Okinawa. His virtuous character was widely known and respected, and because of his popularity the people of Naha bestowed him with the name, Obushi Higaonna Tanmei:, a name which reflected the affection and respect they had for this great man and supreme martial artist.

Kanryo Higaonna's unparalleled skill in the martial arts aside, his great and distinguished work was in bringing the Chinese martial arts from China to Okinawa, and from there spreading these arts among the people of Okinawa.

Kanryo Higaonna is now bestowed with the title "Kensei (sacred fists) Kanryo Higaonna" a title which is eminently fitting. His name is synonymous with Okinawan martial arts and Naha-te, and his spirit is destined to live on forever as a great and valued treasure within Okinawan culture.

Kanryo Higaonna's whole life was devoted to karate. He passed away in December 1915 at the age of 63.
No where does it mention Hu Jao again Goju is FOS all the sources I have found cite this history KC

so let me get this right a site on the internet somehoe knows more than morio? them man studied under miayagi directly and then under his top student lo
but that pproves nothing what does the leading master of goju ryu know compared to some random elderly man whosupposed to studies all these different styles lol

[goju]

is the only place I have found that GoJu Ryu has tiger in it . So for now I still say it doesnt , based on the sheer fact that wiki is often times very wrong!! Name a source or another site because thaat is the only place I found it . I will keep looking though. I know you didnt know anyting about it until you recently( today) googled it

um genius not just wikipedia is unreliable the whole **** internet usually is you even said you had to go look on sites to learn about goju therefore showing that your education on the art is limited and making youe ffort to debate on the topic rediculous

the fact that you could disregard morio higaonnas own words just shows how uneducated you are when it comes to goju

[goju]

Who is Morio ??????? Is that the pizza guy in the game He cant even get the names right. KC

thats his name m o r i o

[goju]

LMAO I looked him up he is supposed ly the leading authority on GoJu Ryu However, I have only found that he made connections with the fuzhou wushu association when discovering the roots about the system, not that there is tiger in the system.

its a direct qoute from the fall 2008 editon of masters magazine i took the exact qoute from the man if you dont believe me buy the back issue and read it for yourself

[goju]

Dragon Times: Sensei, I would like to ask you about some of the criticisms of yourself and your teacher An'ichi Miyagi. Specifically it is said that An'ichi sensei was only a child when he trained with Chojun Miyagi Sensei, that he learned only part of the system, and that his character is, shall we say, flawed.

Morio Higaonna: If it wasn't so funny this would make me very angry. It's also very ironic. People seem unwilling to accept my word that my teacher is the little known An'ichi Miyagi, but willing to accept the claims of one of my former students that his teacher was Chojun Miyagi the founder of Goju Ryu. This despite the fact that he would have been barely more than an infant when Chojun sensei died. They ignore the truth but accept the ludicrous.

The fact of the matter is very simple. When, full of nervous excitement and with the money my mother had given me clenched in my fist, I first went to the garden dojo of Chojun Miyagi sensei as a boy of sixteen, I was told by Koshin Iha, a student of Chojun Miyagi sensei, "if you want to train seriously An'ichi will teach you." He has taught me ever since; I only have the one teacher.

This explains alot I think, this speaks of Morio Higaonna KC

?????
again this has to do with .......???

[goju]

It's the difference between written history and oral tradition. It doesn't mean that there were not names: they still called it a punch in their language. It has been said that the eskimos had 100 different words for snow, but that's because they are snow masters and understood the fine distinctions. There are several different kinds of punches too--and they each were named in the Oikinawan dilect that was different than the Japanese terms that they have now. They just were not written down. Heck, the probably were not even taught to the Japanese in the same way because the Okinawans didn't want them to know the good stuff.

dont really know dont realy care of cours ethey had a word for punch but im talking about the specific karate hand strikes that are around today original karate was extremley and i mean EXTREMELY unorganized the th epoint where alot of its probably lost

[goju]

BOOM BOOM BOOM!!!those are some hard hits

they are please explain to me how?

[goju]

I don't know of any respected tradition that does not teach respect for the elders of society and turn to them for wisdom and experience. Are you not familiar with the title "Grandfather," such as is used in Native American culture? And is there not a similar reverential use in Asian societies? And I'm not talking about my parent's father, either. (If that's too deep for you, go watch the "Billy Jack" movies a few more times). Only an immature child writes off the wisdom of the prior generations just because you haven't seen them perform something better than you can.

NOTE: I am not calling KC, TTM, or anyone else "old." Do not though make the mistake of writing anyone off just because they are old. Heck, if they have been around longer than I have, isn't it more likely I have something to learn from them? I suspect just from reading JP, TTM, KC, BQ, GT, I would benefit from their teachings, and I don't know how old they are. But if I know both how young someone is, and read/hear much ignorance from them, it is difficult to find anything they say worth learning about.

what is wrong with you people?serious what planet did you all come from originally lol

im only going to repeat this once more READ CAREFULLY
kwai (and he himself admitted this a page or to ago) think because he is old thats some how this makes him more of an authority on martial arts
however this does no the only thing that makes you knowledgeable about ma is your skill and nothing else

the mere fact that he must use his age just shows he dosnt know what hes talking about
if i wanted to resort to the same childish tactict i could alway say hes old so his opinion dosnt count which i have not. nor have i for supposedly being the arrogant one here claime i could kick people in half or am somehow able to stretch myself beyond the full splits lol

i only respect those who deserve my respect some boy running around on the internet thinking hes entitled to something because he reached a certain age in his life dont get mine

like ive said getting olds not a great acheivement it happens to all of us

now please lets stay on topic and let this post be the end of this

[Leto]

isn't san chien kata white crane??? Our san he chien is supposedly the same form, right??

sanchin of goju ryu and uechi ryu is descended from white crane sanzhan.
our san he chien is not exactly the same form, but it has similarities. The closest to our form I've seen is the wuzhu quan/five ancestors fist version, which also shares roots with the southern white crane styles, I believe.

Here are two white crane versions, the uechi ryu and goju ryu versions of sanchin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s

five ancestors version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yla9j0AangU

note how the second crane form and the five ancestors have attack sequences at the end similar to our form. The five ancestors hand postures are most similar to ours, I feel.
Also, the characters GM The used for san he chien mean "three harmonies fist", while san zhan means "three battles". What the significance of that is we'll have to guess, but it certainly is a relative of sanchin/sanzhan.

In terms of there being tiger in goju ryu, I did read somwhere that Chojun Miyagi had a Chinese friend or acquaintance on Okinawa who taught a tiger style. I don't remember where or what the name was. This doesn't mean that this fellow's tiger style was a major contributor to goju ryu, but Miyagi did a lot of traveling and studying with different people on Okinawa and in China, on top of his learning from Higashionna. Patrick McCarthy even mentions that he studied at Chin Woo in Shanghai sometime in 1936. What exactly he learned from where and how it influenced the karate he taught, I think no one will ever know. The primary art he taught, and most of the kata, did come from Higashionna.
Now Uechi ryu is a different matter. Although it's main kata are also found in goju ryu, the founder of Uechi ryu said that the style he learned in China was based on the principles of the crane, tiger, and dragon. He supposedly learned from a completely different teacher than Higashionna (and at a much later date). The kata are performed a bit differently, as is seen with the sanchin kata.
So it may not be a solid link such as there is with the white crane teacher that taught Higashionna, I wouldn't say it is impossible that some tiger elements made their way into the naha te kata.
Pretty much all the karate styles, naha te and especially shuri te, don't have any good record of who or where the art came from before it got to Okinawa, except for oral tradition and legend. Shorin ryu/shuri te kata were mostly formed in the late 18th and early 19th century, vs. the naha te/goju ryu which had it's Chinese connection in the later 19th century, so the facts on these styles are slightly more available. A lot of the shuri kata are said to have been taught by random Chinese envoys/bodyguards and stranded sailors whos names are only preserved in the kata name, like "wanshu", "chinto" and "kusanku". So not having information after a certain point is common, no matter what style it is.

There is definately tiger in our style. I have started to wonder if a bit of indigenous silat might have got into our style, too. I used to assume it is just shaolin ditang, but after seeing some silat demonstrations with a lot of low to the ground rolling and kicking ground techniques, I wonder if that's where our brown belt crane forms get their strange mix of southern white crane-style techniques with the sanchin stance and the "broken leg" stance and ground techniques which I always thought were a little strange together.

[goju]

yeah its thought that five ancestor influenced goju and i do honestly beleive silat seeped into karate. as well also there speculation about kururunfa being drawn from the praying mantis tyle

oh it must also be note wing chun was exported into okinawa as well
and their are rumours about miyagi sensei learning paukua and hsingyi

[tattooedmonk]

So student is in class, and teacher has to demo everything everytime? What about next class, is this what happens?

Teacher: Student, do that thing I showed you last time.

Student: You mean this? (shows).

Teacher: No, that other thing.

Student: Oh, you mean this one (shows it).

Teacher: No, no, that was last week, I mean this one (shows it).

Student: Oh, now I got it.

And so on all class?

Really, at least they had, "paint the fence," or "sand the deck," or "wax on, wax off." You know, code names.

Exactly!!! LMAO

[tattooedmonk]

sanchin of goju ryu and uechi ryu is descended from white crane sanzhan.
our san he chien is not exactly the same form, but it has similarities. The closest to our form I've seen is the wuzhu quan/five ancestors fist version, which also shares roots with the southern white crane styles, I believe.

Here are two white crane versions, the uechi ryu and goju ryu versions of sanchin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s

five ancestors version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yla9j0AangU

note how the second crane form and the five ancestors have attack sequences at the end similar to our form. The five ancestors hand postures are most similar to ours, I feel.
Also, the characters GM The used for san he chien mean "three harmonies fist", while san zhan means "three battles". What the significance of that is we'll have to guess, but it certainly is a relative of sanchin/sanzhan.

In terms of there being tiger in goju ryu, I did read somwhere that Chojun Miyagi had a Chinese friend or acquaintance on Okinawa who taught a tiger style. I don't remember where or what the name was. This doesn't mean that this fellow's tiger style was a major contributor to goju ryu, but Miyagi did a lot of traveling and studying with different people on Okinawa and in China, on top of his learning from Higashionna. Patrick McCarthy even mentions that he studied at Chin Woo in Shanghai sometime in 1936. What exactly he learned from where and how it influenced the karate he taught, I think no one will ever know. The primary art he taught, and most of the kata, did come from Higashionna.
Now Uechi ryu is a different matter. Although it's main kata are also found in goju ryu, the founder of Uechi ryu said that the style he learned in China was based on the principles of the crane, tiger, and dragon. He supposedly learned from a completely different teacher than Higashionna (and at a much later date). The kata are performed a bit differently, as is seen with the sanchin kata.
So it may not be a solid link such as there is with the white crane teacher that taught Higashionna, I wouldn't say it is impossible that some tiger elements made their way into the naha te kata.
Pretty much all the karate styles, naha te and especially shuri te, don't have any good record of who or where the art came from before it got to Okinawa, except for oral tradition and legend. Shorin ryu/shuri te kata were mostly formed in the late 18th and early 19th century, vs. the naha te/goju ryu which had it's Chinese connection in the later 19th century, so the facts on these styles are slightly more available. A lot of the shuri kata are said to have been taught by random Chinese envoys/bodyguards and stranded sailors whos names are only preserved in the kata name, like "wanshu", "chinto" and "kusanku". So not having information after a certain point is common, no matter what style it is.

There is definately tiger in our style. I have started to wonder if a bit of indigenous silat might have got into our style, too. I used to assume it is just shaolin ditang, but after seeing some silat demonstrations with a lot of low to the ground rolling and kicking ground techniques, I wonder if that's where our brown belt crane forms get their strange mix of southern white crane-style techniques with the sanchin stance and the "broken leg" stance and ground techniques which I always thought were a little strange together.

Thanks a lot . I appreciate it!!!

[tattooedmonk]

yeah its thought that five ancestor influenced goju and i do honestly beleive silat seeped into karate. as well also there speculation about kururunfa being drawn from the praying mantis tyle

oh it must also be note wing chun was exported into okinawa as well
and their are rumours about miyagi sensei learning paukua and hsingyi

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[goju]

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