Wing Chun - development of a martial art

[t_niehoff]

Here is the third time I CHALLENGE YOU

at ANY TIME ANY PLACE

to bring your MMA candidate or ANY ONE IN WCK who is neutral, Bring your team of Scientist, Bring your Biofeedback machine, and I coach the candidate with the activation of DU and REN Mai, Ancient Chinese method, and then Let the Scientist taking data with the Biofeedback Machine and See what is improve what is not. What is better Handle what is not?

AND Ofcorse you need to sign NDA because technology is not free.

Improve exactly what? His fighting skills? A scientisit with a biofeedback machine can't see that.

I'll tell you what, I'll be visiting Robert in LA (along with Alan, Dave, etc.) in June 2008 -- why don't you come and we'll take you to Eddie Millis' camp where you can show us how well this training works? We'll videotape it and put it up on the web so you can show the world how well it works. Deal?

See, Terence, Talk is cheap and making claim is also cheap when it become a tool for shake of arguement and debating in a word only realm where no REALITY connected to it.

Hendrik, you are the one making the claims -- that this "lost technology" works (that Bigfoot exists). So you need to provide the evidence. Yes, talk is cheap and that's all you are providing. Let's see some results.

In fact, I dont even care for if it is ancient or chinese or modern or name droping. That is the reason I propose to use MODERN TECHNOLOGY to take a measurable, observable data.


Talk is Cheap without MEASURABLE DATA.

If you intend to continous to make claims. Make sure you have measureable DATA before you even speak.

Exactly Hendrik -- so where is your measurable data? If you say this stuff produces good fighting skills, let's see those fighting skills for ourselves. Let's see how good of results they produce?. My claim is that it is all nonsense. And since we can't find anyone in the world who uses your "ancient chinese technology" that has significant fighting skills, it would seem the evidence is on my side.

[Hendrik]

Here's a challenge I am posing on YOU.

Couch a fighter to a championship with your methods ------------


I take your challenge here and settle it here.

in fighting Championship case, I am a Kyokushin; and the method I use will be, Mas Oyama's method which has proved itself to generate so many world class fighters.
So, there is no need for me to prove anything which has been proven many and many time in the past 40 years.

and how is your method stand up compare with Mas Oyama's the Kyokushin way for passed 40years? or have you even join one K1 type of KO Open? if not what is your measurement?









The "measurable data" you are refering to is measured everyday in the ring, cage, Law Enforcement, security and more. They are actually OUT IN THE FIELD testing this stuff in real time. Not hooking up to "modern technology" like that friggen retarded show "Fight Science" and seeing who has the stronger kick, punch or whatever. Who do they get to represent Kung Fu????? a Wushu forms champion.... OH.... MY..... LORD! Yeah.... they're biased Might as well get a Ballet dancer. ---------








The measurable data I am refering and define, In case , missed it for any reason , is Heart Rate, Heart Beat Rythm Vairation, EEG. Those are scientifically proven to show one's mind and body condition under different condition.

That is mesaurabale, justified able data which shows one's basic body/mind condition.

and if we cant even handle it in static condition, how can we have handling in dynamics?

Your suggestion needs to base on your Basic condition handling, how can you know if your training works to progress futher into fighting...etc? if you dont know your basic condition handling measurement data?


For example, disregard of how great a car driver you are, but you drive a crappy car, how could you race with those who has posrche or BMW engine? even worse if you have no idea about how to rate or what is a car's engine.


So, the Modern Technology can tell you what is your car and its engine is about.


BTW:

you think those peak peformers who train with heart rate monitor ... are stupid? hahahaha





Like one VERY wise Sifu said to me once..... "People talk talk talk.... the one still standing says anything he wants." -----

Seems to be a great advise for you.

Doesnt that applied to you alots?

[chusauli]

As a person who has grown up in 2 cultures, I see things differently.

1) I think critical thinking is very important, no matter where you come from. If you don't agree, just agree to disagree. Don't insist on your POV.

2) I believe in Qi, as I am a Chinese Medicine practitioner and martial artist. But Qi is not like the Jedi Force. The cultivation of Qi in the pathways of the 8 extra channels is valuable to health and cultivation, and is a good martial artist's training.

3) Although science is a wonderful paradigm, it is fairly young and is just one worldview. Science likes to decry other worldviews as "wrong" , but this is mostly due to ethnocentricity and ignorance.

4) Chinese medicine is based on the Chinese metaphysical paradigm and takes another world view. Chinese medicine is very practical and has benefits to all people. Even animals like horses, cats and dogs (who probably have their own worldview) get benefit from acupuncture and herbals.

5) People talking in forums are expressing from their own beliefs and worldviews, and freedom of speech is protected in the USA.

6) When the ego gets involved, tempers will flare.

7) Guys, lighten up. Everyone is just having a chat.

8) The Yik Kam Wing Chun Siu Lien Tao system as preserved from Cho Hung Choi and Hendrik Santo is a legitimate system and has Kuen Kuit which stems from the 1800's and a proven lineage. Since it is so rare, its a good opportunity to see what our ancestors left us. It has its roots on the Red Boat Opera, and basically sees the parents as Fujian White Crane and Emei (correct pinyin spelling) 12 Zhuang. The Emei 12 Zhuang stanzas in some ways are almost identical to the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao stanzas. That is verifiable and written fact.

9) Fighting ability is relative to person. Study hard and realistically, you will have skill, but that has little to do with arguing or denying relevant points of discussion here. Many times, its not the size of the dog that matters, but the size of the fight in the dog that matters.

10) What is there to really argue over? You think you got problems? I've got many patients with Cancer, Lupus and Parkinson's. Try being in their situation.

Just my $0.02 regarding this thread.

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, PhD
chusauli@hotmail.com

[leejunfan]

Robert,

Great post!

[Hendrik]

Improve exactly what? His fighting skills? A scientisit with a biofeedback machine can't see that. --------

Unless you dont read my post there is no reason to ask these question above.





I'll tell you what, I'll be visiting Robert in LA (along with Alan, Dave, etc.) in June 2008 -- why don't you come and we'll take you to Eddie Millis' camp where you can show us how well this training works? We'll videotape it and put it up on the web so you can show the world how well it works. Deal? -----



1, Robert has just post his experience.
So, I dont see there is a need to show anything to you. Ask your sifu about chinese Qi if you are still learn WCK. I rest my case.

2. doing a scheduling for more then a year for me who live in the Silicon Valley means that is not serious and not going to make it. so why even bother ask?

3, it seems that you no longer doing WCK. So, why are you here in this WCK forum?


4, up to now, your tactic is always, you dont have result.... so I am not going to read you post any more.

Thanks for sharing and nope our path is different.


Good luck

[Hendrik]

Ok,

we have discuss lots about the activation of Ren and Du medirians.

Now, I would like to share what is it. so when one does SLT/SNT one will know what Nature means.

Honestly, This type of practice has its risk if not being doing it right. One needs an experience sifu to coach and make correction if anything is side track.


However, in my decades of research I have found a western reserach proven teaching which is fit to the most basic begineer step of activation of the Ren and Du medirian. Which could let us to have some entry level experience and benifit safely.




The teaching here is the basic of the handling of Ren and Du Mai.

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/d...=9780553374438


http://www.energybreath.com/Pages/vibrance1.html


pay attention to the breathing and to the spine handling.

Neigong and Qigong needed both handling. Those who do Nim Lik will benifit alots because the spine is not a fix stuff. Thus, Dai Gong needs to be naturally adapting to the spine's movements.



in fact, even when one is doing the heaven character zhuang of emei 12 zhuang. the instruction of the teaching above also applied.


-----------------

ABOUT THIS BOOK

Conscious Breathing draws on more than twenty years of research and practice to present a simple yet comprehensive program that can be used every day to improve energy, mental clarity, and physical health.

As the essential life-force of the body, the breath influences how we feel on every level.

But many traditional breathing programs are limited by esoteric or cultlike elements. Pioneering therapist Gay Hendricks has refined the most important practices into a mainstream healing tool that can provide dramatic benefits--ranging from lowered blood pressure and pain reduction to elimination of depression and anxiety--in as little as ten minutes a day.

At the core of the book are eight key breathing exercises, fully illustrated, with step-by-step instructions, plus the "short form" ten-minute breathing program. Additional chapters provide breathing techniques for special concerns, including: Breathing to aid in trauma release and recovery from addictions. Treatment of asthma and other respiratory problems. .......... Improved concentration and stamina in sports.


------------------------------------------



Hope that this information help you to make good progress in you SLT/SNT training.

Have an excellent basic body/mind/breathing and a Good kind heart and the rest will manifest naturally.


Enjoy

[byond1]

My comments follow with ++++


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sure you are right.

and sure everything is based on if the respected HS dont know anything, right?

well ask Jim about the scholastic nonsense Hendrik has speculate when he show what hendrik share with him to GM Fu last year. hahaha.

and make sure dont follow hendrik's speculation because what if hendrik is totally wrong and bsing everyone.

follow with your own risk. dont tell me I dont warn you here. hahaha


+++Now you are getting defensive. Your slipping from your "State". Keep things Clear. This isnt about Emie 12 jong and white crane being the parents of WCK. As that is something i accept. This is about how WCK should be trained, and how much comes from each parent. Beyond that, you have stated something. It was "WCK is meant to be Internal". Now i simple asked if you had actually trained the Emie 12 jong, learned it from a teacher, as well as applied those teachings to WCK, and had personaly validated your speculation with real time training and experiance. I have asked nothing unreasonable.

I dont care what Jim has to say about it. What i care about is if you have validated your mind speculation with realtime experiance. If you have, than it shouldnt be a problem for you to say, "yes i have trained it and thats why i have tried to share it" or you could say "yes im speculating but i "think" im right." - Because my real time training and experiance doesnt support your speculation. So, if your training in real time and experiance does support it, than perhaps you training is deeper and perhaps i need to renovate and would try your approach. But i wont play with my training without care and caution. Hence all i asked was if you had experianced it.





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"BUt when we say WCK needs to be practised a certain way or was practised a certain way by the ancestors, we need Experiance to know if thats true.

Than once you have attainment, you can help lead others down the proper path"-BS



sure, you are right logically.

The question is how can one know what is what before having an attainment? I dont question, I go with my sifu's teaching and always posting with Thus, I have heard. hahaha


+++So before you had attainment how did you "See" your sifus' teachings were correct?? What state where you in that you could verify his State?? You couldnt so you went on faith like me?

My sifus life mirrors mine. He practised a differant version of WCK, that was from HK. Things didnt make complete sence. He met Sum Nung, and saw and felt and had all the questions he had - nswered , and so changed systems. I have had the exact same experiance. I started the training via faith in his realtime experiance. He shared enough with me, that i saw the truth, and gave it a chance. I trained it. And have now developed, and have validated the teachings.

And there are numerous layers of "state". I have some attainment but its limited. As i see you are in. Slipping in and out. Not maintaining always. As the truth state, ego wouldnt exist.








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What is a middle path? please define in detail until then I have no idea what do you mean.

as for what is Snake powered Crane potential definition with specifics is up in the forum for reading.

As for hard, soft, internal, and external.. well ask Dr. Chow or others who is pioner in the internal art. they set the reference certainly not me.


+++You miss my point. Dr.Chow has 1 opinion of probably 10,000 on internal training. Is Wudang correct? Is Ermie correct? is Chan seng feng correct? Is esoteric buddhism correct? Taoism correct? TCM correct? All correct? None correct?

And i already explain "Middle path" -
its a core concept from the Iching. I would think you were familiar with it. Its avoiding extremes. Applied to training. Nothing more, nothing less. Doubtfull my words could convey the truth to you or anyone. Perhaps you need to try training it with a Sifu who follows it. The training would include Tendon training, along side breath, and Chi Work, as well as Programing in the initial stages or what you refer to as Soaking.



--------------------------




LOL. Ok i can stroke your ego, were friends. Yes - You shared the Emie "12 zhaung" White Crane fusion with me. And it was , i would say mind specluation on yours and Cho Hong Choi sifus part . Mind speculation isnt bad unto itself. Its simply not truth. It can be a valid starting point, which than needs to be validated with experianced and training, as many times Mind Speculation crumbles under the weight of truth. ------B



You see, I am sure love to have my ego boost, but then why do you have to follow my mind speculation ? I might be totally wrong and misleading.

doesnt make sense to follow some one's speculation right? hahaha


+++The answer to your question is in the above post. First i dont have to follow anything. I have already followed a path that has proven itself to me. You, have posted and made a statement. WCK is meant to be practised Internal. You than defined Internal as Activating the 8 special merridians and Breath and Chi work. I see nothing wrong with your speculation, as that is frequiently the starting point, your speculation may be from a point of clairity. I am willing to try something, if you actually trained it and know for a fact your speculation was correct. If not i wont gamble with my art.


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as I mention above, follow my mind speculation with your own risk? hahaha


+++Thanks for answering my question. Now i know to tread carefully.

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sure, with the same logic as yours, if hendrik
study emei 12 zhuang formally with top name but his dan dien is not heat up and Could not handle/activate the Ren Du Mai, then hendrik has zero right?

+++Your experiance would either mean 1) You didnt train properly or long enough or 2)the teachings are not valid.


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to the worse , if hendrik have not experience the basic Qi accumulation which is common to all Chinese internal art, and start to make lots of speculation about others right or wrong based on hendrik's self righteous view, that is even misleading right?
so, here again dont follow hendrik's bad habit. hahaha


+++Thanks for the help. Things are much clearer.

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Name dropping is pointless. But if someone asks - So you know WCK , who did you learn from ? and you say. From Sifu "" . Thats called polite conversation.
People also want to know why one is qualified to make statements. ITs normal - in all parts of life, we have to give our referances. True Name Dropping is ego based and more mind speculation---BS


True.
and also Depend on who is the audiance.

+++True to a point.
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Good point,

we are not directing this post about wCK to "I know" post right?

+++I dont know. Thats what my entire several posts were attempting to figure out. Instead of assuming i asked you. As "i know" only comes from attainment from correct practise.

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Great idea.
I certainly miss your point.

IMHO, your point is certainly different then mine, See, I look at myself as just a beginer who isnot in the position to question that to Dr. Chow. I am just in the position of trying to learn as much from him if possible.


+++I definatly view myself as a beginer. But that has little to do, with asking your teacher if they actually have trained what they are trying to teach. Why would i want to learn from a swim instructor who has never been in the Water? Why is asking viewed as negative? This isnt the 1700s. We are allowed to question respectfully.


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[byond1]

Again, conflicting information. Many differant classics with many differant views. Which is correct?? Only experiance will work out for one, what is what not "Words" or reading a book.-BS

That depend on if the person has the state and internal attainment. Nothing is fixed.


+++Any how does one know they have attainement and not "lost in illusion" - The mind can be a terrible thing to taste. How many classics were written by those in Attaiment state?? How can the reader know which classic was written by an author in the attainment state?? Especialy if the reader is Not Attained but trying to find the classic that will provide the proper training that if followed properly will lead to the attainment state.?

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Sure. but then how many really will activate thier medirians?
if all does then how come the art can be lost? hahaha..
I am satisfied if I could see a sifu demo for me.


+++So what would that do for your attainment?? Just because you saw someone demo - you wouldnt simply than have attainment. And you cant "See" what is going on inside and Internal.





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So we must always scrutinize in a postive manner ourselves. -----BS






I like to elaborate some more here.
If I may comment this is a totally wrong attitude and wrong mind set for internal traiining. It doesnt work in real internal art practice. this is a dead trap in internal training and meditation.
IMHO all these above introduce doubt. and once Doubt is introduce into one's mind, one is in trouble especially those who train in advance Internal art. beside the mind has no idea what is going on with the realm of AWARENESS which is beyond it. So, this is a dead trap, trap by one's own mind.
It is said, buddha is here kill the buddha, Demon is here kill the demon with the sword of wisdom. practitional got into trouble alots when one has this type of mind set.


+++Im not sure what culture you grew up in, but in America if you dont question you get manipulated.
You simply choose to see the negative of the act of questioning. I dont. I see the positive. Those who dont want you to question are those who dont have the answers. or are scared of others having the answers.

There is a distinct differance in the use of the Upper mind to calculate things and to process data, than to be lost in the thought stream.

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IMHO, until One have attain the state one has NO clear vision at all or to be honest it is a totally blind. Thus, it is said, Sifu is the one who lead one into the door.

+++differant levels to the state. SOme may have 1 eye open. As the saying goes in the land of the blind, the 1 eyed man is king.

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with all these seems logical and sound great thinking this is a dead trap.
Get a proper and good sifu and following his instruction, stop asking all the question with mind speculation. Otherwise, dont practice, it is going to do more harm then good with all the smart and logical thinking. IMHO. and that is what I have learn from reading late Dr. Chow's and others ancient writing.


+++I already have studied with several good Sifu and continue to, and they disagree with your ideas complelty.
I myself am still open minded and havnt closed my mind to other possibilities about Training. And again i dont disagree nor question Emie mountain Snake boxing and Yong Chun County White crane as being the parents of WCK. But my expereriance in training doesnt support WCK being an Internal system. In stead its a hybred approach.

So dont ask questions?? If i dont ask how can i find a Sifu who follows your idea of the correct internal path?? What if most Sifu follow the path my Teachers do? There by your own statement would suggest that they are not a "Good Sifu" becasue they dont follow the Internal path you suggest is "good".

I would be carefull about mind specultion without actually having the experiance to substantiate. This can also be harmfull, because if we lead someone down a path that may or may not be legitamate, we are responsible for hurting them and will suffer the karma. WCK isnt Tai Chi nor should be practised like Tai Chi. Mixing arts is dangerous as well.

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ofcorse people dont have to listern to what I said above but if you are on the path to internal. Choose a proper and good sifu, follow his instruction, stop playing smart a$$ until you have your own state attain then and only then do what you like. otherwise, why create trouble for oneself. Thus, in going inward, a good sifu is everything.dont believe me? think. why Christ and all the saint and mystics teachers LOVE and Forgive instead of scrutinize youself?


+++The mystic teachers were not MA teachers. Im not on the path of internal training with my WCK. I practised Basic Ermie and WCK. My WCK is practised with the training that YKS and Sum Nung standaradized. My results are wonderfull. If you percieve me "Playing a smart ass" than you really have less attainment than i thought, as that is left field from my true intent in posting.

1)Enjoying conversation with fellow WCKers

2)Growth via the process of discusion and analysis

3)Possibly learning new training methods, from someone who has TRIED THEM OUT AND ATTAINED Clear States and is able to maintain them all the time. If not The person is in no position to teach anything.


-----------------------



Oh, I must be a bad influence. hahaha.

OK, I give you an answer.
If I have already have the state then I am answering the question.
If I dont have that state then I am name droping.


is that a good answer? hahaha


+++Yes. Its a really great answer and makes the most sence of any words yet put down in this thread.


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so, have you attain the state yet? hahaha


+++As i have honestly mentioned, i have attained certain levels of the state, but cant maintain it all the time. Hence the attainment isnt deep enough.

Brian

[Matrix]

It's all about making you happy.

Finally!! Something we both agree on.

An open mind doesn't mean we "suspend our disbelief" -- if anything we should remain skeptical and disbelieving.

I think I'm seeing where we're having a disconnect. If you remain skeptical you kill the idea before you've had a chance to really think about it as objectively as possible. Skepticism and disbelief tend to be based on old paradigms, so different points of view are quickly killed before they have a chance.

People love to romaticize the past.

They also love to romanticize the future and sometimes even the present.

And your faith can be different than someone else's. But how do we know if any of it is true?

The fact that we have different ideas of faith is irrelavent. There is more than one path. Feel free to label it whatever you like, it changes nothing.

Anyways, we've had this discussion before, a little while back. So I'm going to drop it here. Good luck with your hard evidence, and don't hurt Hendrik too badly when you meet his challenge. Be merciful.

[Hendrik]

To cut things short, here I cut away all personal stuffs and get direct to the technical.







+++You miss my point. Dr.Chow has 1 opinion of probably 10,000 on internal training. Is Wudang correct? Is Ermie correct? is Chan seng feng correct? Is esoteric buddhism correct? Taoism correct? TCM correct? All correct? None correct?-----


I dont miss your point.


There is NO contradiction and NO confusion in Chinese internal training.



There are 3 keys which applied to ALL Chinese Internal art.

all cultivator in the Chinese Internal art know these three are the basic, process and these are also the ultimate Goal.


Eventhought different styles has its own uniqueness however the 3 keys applied to all.








And i already explain "Middle path" - its a core concept from the Iching.----------





Nope you didnt explain.

Iching has no concept on Middle path. But harmony, and Harmony is not Middle Path.


Look at the Hexagon combination, there is no such thing in the Hexagon as 5 and 5 combination. Check it out.

and the best state in IChing hexagram is Ch'ien or Modesty

http://littlestcat.com/iching/hex15.html

even in this hexagram, there is only one Yang (nine) and other five are Yin (six) So what is Middle path?







I would think you were familiar with it. Its avoiding extremes.-----------



I am familiar with Iching however not familiar with your view on IChing.

what is extreme? what is not extreme? Look at the best Hexagram isnt it has only one Yang and 5 Yin? isnt this an extreme?

Not to mention the
Ch'ien or The Creative is an all Yang
http://littlestcat.com/iching/hex1.html

and K'un or The Receptive are all Yin.
http://littlestcat.com/iching/hex2.html


see for yourself, what is middle path?





Applied to training. Nothing more, nothing less.---------

Again, the combination of Hexagon :
9 and 1 = 10
8 and 2 =10
7 and 3 = 10
6 and 4 = 10.

all equal to 10
So, which is nothing more nothing less?





Doubtfull my words could convey the truth to you or anyone. Perhaps you need to try training it with a Sifu who follows it. -----


I take you as we are from different culture and Challenging me is a part of your believe . So, it is ok to make all the assumption as you speculate.





The training would include Tendon training, along side breath, and Chi Work, as well as Programing in the initial stages or what you refer to as Soaking. ----


This is a very generalization where not even entering the door. This is the most dangerous assumption made be it in the east or west.








+++The answer to your question is in the above post. First i dont have to follow anything. I have already followed a path that has proven itself to me.



You, have posted and made a statement.
WCK is meant to be practised Internal. You than defined Internal as Activating the 8 special merridians and Breath and Chi work.

I see nothing wrong with your speculation, as that is frequiently the starting point, your speculation may be from a point of clairity. I am willing to try something, if you actually trained it and know for a fact your speculation was correct. If not i wont gamble with my art. ------------- B





You sure dont have to follow anything or proven anything.

I am also dont have to prove anything. and what I post here is just the basic of Chinese Internal training basic. one could call that speculation, ONe could take it, one could dump it, that is totally fine with me. Different people different stroke.

























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Great idea.
I certainly miss your point.

IMHO, your point is certainly different then mine, See, I look at myself as just a beginer who isnot in the position to question that to Dr. Chow. I am just in the position of trying to learn as much from him if possible. --HS


+++I definatly view myself as a beginer. But that has little to do, with asking your teacher if they actually have trained what they are trying to teach. Why would i want to learn from a swim instructor who has never been in the Water? Why is asking viewed as negative? This isnt the 1700s. We are allowed to question respectfully.------------




we are sure from different culture. and my Chinese Internal art sifu including the late Cho Hong Choy or Cho WCK arent swim instructor. at least all the sifus I have met rather I am shut up and train 2 hours a day until if I reach a certain state. otherwise I have no idea how to even ask question. Thus, the Chinese called it Xua Wen or Learning to Ask question. ONe needs to learn before could ask sensible questions.

and also, what is questioning respectfully have different interpretation.
So, we have different experience.

[Hendrik]

Again, conflicting information. Many differant classics with many differant views. Which is correct?? Only experiance will work out for one, what is what not "Words" or reading a book.-BS

That depend on if the person has the state and internal attainment. Nothing is fixed.-- HS


+++Any how does one know they have attainement and not "lost in illusion" - The mind can be a terrible thing to taste. How many classics were written by those in Attaiment state?? How can the reader know which classic was written by an author in the attainment state?? Especialy if the reader is Not Attained but trying to find the classic that will provide the proper training that if followed properly will lead to the attainment state.?-----



That is the reason one need an experience sifu. In my experience, and only mine, be it my sifu from TaiChi, NeiGong,..... all teaches me the three essential basic. Then they teaches the uniqueness of their style.

There is nothing ambiguity. There is nothing left to mind speculate.

Everything is clear and non contraditory.

The different is say Shao Lin Yi Ying Ying start the training with activating the Lung Medirians. The emei 12 zhuang Start with the little Yang medirian... the motion might be different but everything follow the three keys of Chinese internal cultivation.






Sure. but then how many really will activate thier medirians?
if all does then how come the art can be lost? hahaha..
I am satisfied if I could see a sifu demo for me. ------HS


+++So what would that do for your attainment?? Just because you saw someone demo - you wouldnt simply than have attainment. And you cant "See" what is going on inside and Internal.


at least one have seen the real thing once.

that way, one would not mislead oneself , not mislead others from book learning mind speculation.

without going through this step how is one going to truely learn?







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So we must always scrutinize in a postive manner ourselves. -----BS






I like to elaborate some more here.
If I may comment this is a totally wrong attitude and wrong mind set for internal traiining. It doesnt work in real internal art practice. this is a dead trap in internal training and meditation.
IMHO all these above introduce doubt. and once Doubt is introduce into one's mind, one is in trouble especially those who train in advance Internal art. beside the mind has no idea what is going on with the realm of AWARENESS which is beyond it. So, this is a dead trap, trap by one's own mind.
It is said, buddha is here kill the buddha, Demon is here kill the demon with the sword of wisdom. practitional got into trouble alots when one has this type of mind set.


+++Im not sure what culture you grew up in, but in America if you dont question you get manipulated.
You simply choose to see the negative of the act of questioning. I dont. I see the positive. Those who dont want you to question are those who dont have the answers. or are scared of others having the answers.

There is a distinct differance in the use of the Upper mind to calculate things and to process data, than to be lost in the thought stream. ---B





The reason I purposely elaborate here is because

as it said,
creating karma and cultivating internal is a totally opposite path.

Mind is an instrument of creation, one could use the mind to create karma whether it is good or bad.

internal Cultivation is the path to return to the origin or infinite, or Let Go Let God. So there is not cultural different be it in the west or in the east. Same.

The AWARENESS could KNOW but the mind cannot percieve this path, one needs to evoke the AWARENESS. Until then one better off following the sifu. otherwise, dont train.

INternal Cultivation is to release every thoughts, good or bad, lower or UPPER , only when the mind is quiet then the path surface.


if one is so concern about "you dont question you get manipulated. " and calculation, then one cannot train the internal path because training internal path is about Let Go Let God, or DAo mimic the Natural or as in the Emei 12 zhuang clasical said " one spontaneously following the Nature.."



even in EEG, if one cannot let go one's thought and quiet down the mind, one's is not going to get into Alfa state or any deep awareness state. without going to Alfa state one is not going to experience what one doesnt aware of in the beta state.





further more,
the basic of internal training is similar be it east, west, or now using modern technology.



Thus, today, one cannot lie about one's internal training. hook one up with the meter and one will see how far one could go. you want to check basic Dan Dien breathing? hook up the HRV. you want to check quiet mind state? hook up the EEG. you want to know if one is loose enough? hook up the temperature sensing.....

IMHO I rather talk measurement with modern machine then formal training because until one could measure the data, even if one learn from Damo of Shao Lin himself , it doesnt mean a thing. one might have no clue about attainment.









WCK isnt Tai Chi nor should be practised like Tai Chi. Mixing arts is dangerous as well.----




WCK is not Tai Chi but they share the 3 keys of all Chinese internal art.

Taichi also activate the 8 medirians but with different sequence. Where WCK first activate the Ren and Du. Look at GM TST's teaching. That is the teaching of activating the Ren and Du. These are all facts. you sure dont have to take it. But it is facts.




just some thoughts.

[Hendrik]

I would be busy at work. so, would not be able to reply post for next few weeks.

best Regards

[shaolin_allan]

as I have said before in other posts, many styles include aspects of internal and external styles. Many blocks in both northern and southern are meant to redirect and deflect force away from yourself. In many so called 'external' styles in their advanced stages begin to develop good internal aspects such as aikido. It's all about the style,location,and sifu. Everyone is different, and everyone concentrates more on different aspects as they teach. Just know what you want in an art and go find it.

[byond1]

To cut things short, here I cut away all personal stuffs and get direct to the technical.


+++Personal is important, if it relates to ones experiance, in whatever one is talking about, or is trying to express to others.-





I dont miss your point.
There is NO contradiction and NO confusion in Chinese internal training.
There are 3 keys which applied to ALL Chinese Internal art.
all cultivator in the Chinese Internal art know these three are the basic, process and these are also the ultimate Goal.
Eventhought different styles has its own uniqueness however the 3 keys applied to all.


+++Okay. I disagree. I have read many classics, from a very wide range of Chinese Internal and External Arts. If everyone used the exact same 3 keys or core information, there wouldnt be a need for so many variations and differant system approachs to Training.

My study of Man's esoteric history and truth, has proven to me that, there is a common system to all ancient man, that is imbeded in the ancient Numeric Alphabet systems, With only miner cultural differances. It took me directly learning and experiancing Esoteric Taoism, Hermetics, Gnostism (true Christiantiy), Chaldean Kabala, Hebrew Kabala, Egyptian Kabala, Shugendo, Yamabushi, Tibetan Esoteric Buddhism, Theosophy of Blavatsky and Emie mountain, to understand the Common system. This system is the Operating system and hand book for the Human "Machine", and also includes mans true history and evolution, which includes the various Root races and sub race development.

"Internal" Kung Fu has parts of this system. But its extremly fragmented, imo. And each C.M.A system has differant components intact. But most dont contain all of the parts as a whole. Emie Mountain is one that probably does contain all the components, but you would have to be an actualy Monk to be trasmited the entire system. And to say there is a common core concept across all Chinese Internal Arts is just not true, IMO. But im willing to learn more, and let go of my current perception, if there is enough supporting evidence.

I wouldnt call any of the above "Internal" but "Spiritual" systems of evolution for man to evolve into what he should be or "Is". Man is a microcosm of the Macrocosm. All of creation is within the Human Body as is the entire process of creation. All other root races that man is related to are contained within the various stages of the birth cycle. As such There is only 1 in truth - Micro and Macro are only 1. Yin, Yang and the Son/Man are only 1.
And in training for spiritual development, we move from the many, and gradualy "Hack away" fragmentation, until we get back to the most simple and core of everything, which "Sung" is a very important component of.
Man contains the 3 pure ones/Holy trinity, which contains Body, Soul, and Spirit as the major "demarcations" (which really are not). The soul has 2 aspects. The Upper and the Lower. If the Upper is evolved and unions with the Spirit/Shen, that is the "Marriage of the bride groom" - jesus spoke about or Internal Sexual alchemy talks about. This is the Male and Female energies becoming 1.

I dont agree currently that WCK has Emie's entire spiritual system imbeded in it. I think it has parts that were Fused with White Crane. If one wants the 9 level Ladder they need the Complete Emie System, Not WCK. IF one practise WCK as Emie, you are doing a localized evolution WCK method.






Nope you didnt explain.

+++Its ok not to understand my answer. That doesnt mean, you were not given an answer.



Iching has no concept on Middle path. But harmony, and Harmony is not Middle Path.


+++I disagree. Harmony and Balance are never in extreme unbalanced states, which is what one would have to be in, to not follow the Middle path (which is my paraphrasing of the idea). Therefore Harmony and Change with perfect balance still only ends up with 1 whole. And than...nothing. You think Heaven and Earth are 2?? Im sorry, they are not. They are parts of a Whole that are not meant to be pulled apart with disregard to the entire context. Just as the Iching also maps the DNA - The context, and how every thing relates and interpenetrates is of importance.




Look at the Hexagon combination, there is no such thing in the Hexagon as 5 and 5 combination. Check it out.
and the best state in IChing hexagram is Ch'ien or Modesty
ttp://littlestcat.com/iching/hex15.html
even in this hexagram, there is only one Yang (nine) and other five are Yin (six) So what is Middle path?


+++Your ideas of Seperation, and Dichotomy is something i dont agree with it. That is the same thing LIbnitz did to the IChing when he created the Binary system, from his perception evidently it was logical. You are looking at broken down frozen pieces of something that is Perfected, and Balanced and flows lilke water. So 5 grams of salt in that small splash from the Ocean, and so there is no middle/Harmony to The Ocean. ?!?!??? No middle in the center of a Huricane??













I am familiar with Iching however not familiar with your view on IChing.

+++Thats obvious, but im not familar with using the term Internal to represent spiritual training. I suppose its "Logical".





what is extreme? what is not extreme? Look at the best Hexagram isnt it has only one Yang and 5 Yin? isnt this an extreme?
Not to mention the
Ch'ien or The Creative is an all Yang
http://littlestcat.com/iching/hex1.html
and K'un or The Receptive are all Yin.
http://littlestcat.com/iching/hex2.html
see for yourself, what is middle path?


+++I cant give you the perception to see byond your limited dichotomy of something that isnt meant to be Dichotomied. No! no extremes. Its all 1. Its a Huge macrocosmic "Ocean" that you cant force into your little compartments. Again, what you are saying is right in a "Logic" Sence. But makes no sence when you look at the Tao with "Shin Shin Shin Gan"







I take you as we are from different culture and Challenging me is a part of your believe . So, it is ok to make all the assumption as you speculate.


+++Well i take it from your culture or you personaly view anyone who asks a question as " challenging you" IE something Negative. Thats an assumtion and speculation on your part.
To me, Questioning is very healthy and positive. When one is ignorant, one asks. And If one says "i know the truth - Here it is" - Than you can expect that, if your audiance is Westerners, you should give your referances, if you expect to me taken seriously with the end result of people accepting your help and mentoring.

And there is no negative intent in anything within this thread. i was just seeing what would come about in conversation with some Catalyst added to the mix, instead of repeating the same info . Nothing more.





The training would include Tendon training, along side breath, and Chi Work, as well as Programing in the initial stages or what you refer to as Soaking. ----BS


This is a very generalization where not even entering the door. This is the most dangerous assumption made be it in the east or west.

+++You assume , that is the entire scope of what i am refering to? You assume im in a place where im allowed, by my teachers ,to spill out my entire training for the entertainment of someone trying to prove the traditions that have been passed down by YKS sijo?? and or spiritual training that is common to most ancient cultures. Those are a few things that need to be trained, with none of the training explained, and no order to the items listed.













You sure dont have to follow anything or proven anything.

I am also dont have to prove anything. and what I post here is just the basic of Chinese Internal training basic. one could call that speculation, ONe could take it, one could dump it, that is totally fine with me. Different people different stroke.


+++You dont have to prove anything. If you want people to actually try the training, that you are suggesting, it is not unreasonable to explain to people, your own training and experiance, and validate you have trained what you are suggesting is the "Truth about training".
People wont gamble with their WCK training, especialy altering it in a major way, without knowing the person, knows what they are actually talking about. This shouldnt be insulting. This is simply fact. Im surprised you were not more sensitive to it, living in the West as long as you have.

IMO, you have helped pioneer WCK research, and have helped surface alot of rare treasures. BUt that is the Roots and History of WCK. Now we are talking what is or isnt trained. This is very very serious and b-Yond a Hobby of mine. I dont take our system lightly. There is so much localized evolution, i think currently its unclear what ISNT Localized evolution. You say Internal is the truth about WCk training. Or is it? Perhaps that is a localized evolution, as Wong Wah Bo, Dai Fa min Kam and Leung yee Tai , didnt include what you are describing as Internal and all focused on Yik Gang.

B

[byond1]

we are sure from different culture. and my Chinese Internal art sifu including the late Cho Hong Choy or Cho WCK arent swim instructor. at least all the sifus I have met rather I am shut up and train 2 hours a day until if I reach a certain state. otherwise I have no idea how to even ask question. Thus, the Chinese called it Xua Wen or Learning to Ask question. ONe needs to learn before could ask sensible questions.

and also, what is questioning respectfully have different interpretation.
So, we have different experience.


+++Yes. Plus i dont have alot of the Cultural condition most have. I dont have to conform to orthodox society. I also dont have exoteric religion conditioning like most so, hence i have a differant perception of things than most Herd type people.
I never mentioned CHC was a swiming instructor. That statement was made to clairify something. And that is, if you go to learn how to swim, would you learn from someone who had never been in the water??? So i asked you if you had ever been in the water.
And you have finnaly answered my question, when you mention Xua Wen. If that was mentioned initialy, i wouldnt have had anymore questions.

















That is the reason one need an experience sifu. In my experience, and only mine, be it my sifu from TaiChi, NeiGong,..... all teaches me the three essential basic. Then they teaches the uniqueness of their style.
There is nothing ambiguity. There is nothing left to mind speculate.
Everything is clear and non contraditory.
The different is say Shao Lin Yi Ying Ying start the training with activating the Lung Medirians. The emei 12 zhuang Start with the little Yang medirian... the motion might be different but everything follow the three keys of Chinese internal cultivation.

+++I wish that were true, but i think as i mentioned the information is fragmented, as i mentioned earlier.







at least one have seen the real thing once.
that way, one would not mislead oneself , not mislead others from book learning mind speculation.
without going through this step how is one going to truely learn?

+++But in internal training we cant see what i going on inside.























The reason I purposely elaborate here is because
as it said,
creating karma and cultivating internal is a totally opposite path.
Mind is an instrument of creation, one could use the mind to create karma whether it is good or bad.
internal Cultivation is the path to return to the origin or infinite, or Let Go Let God. So there is not cultural different be it in the west or in the east. Same.


+++That is spiritual training, and im very acclamated to it. I didnt know that was what you were implying "Internal" is. Again, WCK isnt meant to be spiritual system. Ermie is though..








The AWARENESS could KNOW but the mind cannot percieve this path, one needs to evoke the AWARENESS. Until then one better off following the sifu. otherwise, dont train.
INternal Cultivation is to release every thoughts, good or bad, lower or UPPER , only when the mind is quiet then the path surface.
if one is so concern about "you dont question you get manipulated. " and calculation, then one cannot train the internal path because training internal path is about Let Go Let God, or DAo mimic the Natural or as in the Emei 12 zhuang clasical said " one spontaneously following the Nature.."
even in EEG, if one cannot let go one's thought and quiet down the mind, one's is not going to get into Alfa state or any deep awareness state. without going to Alfa state one is not going to experience what one doesnt aware of in the beta state.


+++Yes so i agree that in the methods you have listed, but i call that Spiritual. And didnt know that was what you are saying "Internal" is.


















WCK is not Tai Chi but they share the 3 keys of all Chinese internal art.

Taichi also activate the 8 medirians but with different sequence. Where WCK first activate the Ren and Du. Look at GM TST's teaching. That is the teaching of activating the Ren and Du. These are all facts. you sure dont have to take it. But it is facts.


+++So what are you refering to as the 3 keys of Internal Training?

B