Ground fighting

[SevenStar]

I don't quite understand what John was getting at either...in the way he described it. (The MMA guy supposedly "grabbed the leg"... how does one now slam the leg into the opponent's outer thigh from there?)...

I assumed he meant he stepped with the rear leg and hit him, not the one that was grabbed... I'm not sure how he was able to do that without falling if it was a committed single leg attempt, though...

[Knifefighter]

Too many things can go wrong: He's got a friend in the vicinity. He could pull something out of his pocket while on the ground that you're in no position to see - whereas if it had remained standing - you probably would see it. The terrain is too dangerous because of rocks, glass, rolling into an oncoming car, etc.

Having backup is a definite consideration. However, it works both ways.

As far as pulling a weapon, a weapon is more easily controlled on the ground than it is standing.

LOL @ the rocks, broken glasss, etc. that everyone uses as a reason for not going to the ground. Look outside on your street right now. How much of it is covered in rocks and broken glass?

And you are more likely to run into the path of an oncoming car when maneuvering for posiiton or escaping a fight than you are to roll into its path from groundfighting.

Are there times when going to the ground is the last thing one wants to do... of course, especially if he doens't have much knowledge there.
There are other times when it is the best thing to do... especially if one has expertise there.
As with anything situations dictate specifics.

[t_niehoff]

A few thoughts . . .

In true "self-defense situations" we don't get to pick and choose our fight or how that fight goes down. All we can be is the best prepared we can for whatever comes at us. And for me, that means to assume worst-case scenarios, things like I'm on the ground and mounted - now, how do I deal with that? In a two-on-one situation, what makes me think I'll be standing? My point is that we don't have much control in these situations (if we could control them, we'd probably choose not to be in a fight in the first place!).

Most "WCK for self-defense" people I've met assume best-case scenarios - like they'll be standing in their bi-jong calmly waiting for an attack to use their four gate theory and do a simulataneous block and eye-jab!!

One thing that surprises me, especially in this age of Youtube, etc. where we can actually watch lots of "streetfights" on video, are the erroneous assumptions people make about them.

[Ultimatewingchun]

CHECK THIS OUT...

http://mma.tv/tuf/index.cfm?FID=1&a=219&TID=0

(The thread entitled: MMA GUY PROMOTES WING CHUN).

[Edmund]

I assumed he meant he stepped with the rear leg and hit him, not the one that was grabbed... I'm not sure how he was able to do that without falling if it was a committed single leg attempt, though...

I thought it was describing a harai goshi using the grabbed leg.

[Liddel]

if his wc stand up is so hot and wc is what he used to neutralize it, then nobody really gives a hoot if he is a sankyu or above in judo - it has ZERO relevance to his actual story. Yet, for some reason he seems to feel the need to make it clear that he has had some ground related sport training - why?

Everything comes to bear IMO. To say it has zero relevance is not true.

Ever hear "knowledge is power".
The fact he has experience in a ground related style means he's aware of aspects of the opponents fighting style. This would prepare him mentally as to what the opponent might use right ?

Just because he didnt directly apply his ground game doesnt imply that his experience from the ground made him able to avoid getting to that point in the first place

This is why professionals in fighting and in other sports watch tapes of the opponents to gauge what habbits they have in thier field -

So perhaps in that situation his Judo made it possible for him to utilise his stand up.
The devil you know is better than the devil you dont know IMO.

[Knifefighter]

I thought it was describing a harai goshi using the grabbed leg.

You can't do harai goshi if the opponent is holding your leg for a single leg takedown.

[Edmund]

You can't do harai goshi if the opponent is holding your leg for a single leg takedown.

Sure you can. I've had it done on me many times.

[Knifefighter]

Sure you can. I've had it done on me many times.

Really? How do you do harai goshi when your leg is in between your opponent's legs?

[Edmund]

Really? How do you do harai goshi when your leg is in between your opponent's legs?

You uchi mata in that case but I don't think John specified that it was the case.

[drleungjohn]

Sorry I haven't kept up with this thread especially since I started it!

First-I only included what little knowledge of grappling/groundfighting I have to illustrate the point that I don't have a lot of experience with it-and wouldn't delude or hallucinate that I am good at it-

Second-Terence-way back in post 2-asked what my experience is with it-

Third-Just because I have done some of it-doesn't mean I would be so foolish in a fight to try it against someone who really does it-or says they do-I fight my game my way because I know what I'm doing with it-I play to my strengths-not my weakness
My "personal" MMA includes Tai Chi,Ba Gua,Southern Preying Mantis,Silat,American Boxing and good ole WCK-so my game is to knock people down-not go down with them-

Fourth-no disrespect intended-but I don't do it because I don't like to do it-and I am not good at it-and it doesn't suit me-and for no other reasons-I have no business rolling around on the floor-getting up,being slammed down,wriggling around and trying to get up again-if you haven't noticed-as we get older the floor gets harder and less comfortable

As to my recent altercation-my apolgies for not being specific enough-I write this stuff very late after work and teaching responsibilities-as well as family-so I write at 1 Am usually around there-

I'll try to clarify-

-His right leg was forward at the time-My left leg(TWC Left Side Horse-and I had the slight outside angle)) did a front kick/knee raise as bait-since I faked it before to see a reaction in my comfort range
-He went for it -His right arm circled in a scoop around my lower leg knee as he came forward-
-my first rule of kicking-if they block it or grab it-put it down!-So since I had the outside angle-I immediately slammed my leg and bodyweight down onto the floor but also along the outer edge of his entire right leg-this caused it to buckle-at the same time-he was not completely set and was still coming forward as I dropped my leg and weight-at the same time I used my right elbow into the side of his head in a push fashion and twisted to the left with it-spilling him over my right leg-he landed on his elbow-clear now?



I have had people push my leg forward and up to break my structure-pull it forward etc--but i have always been able to get my base back quickly and hit them before anything happened-so far-LOL!
Those that have gone for my legs-either single or double-I have always outflanked them and changed my base to give them nothing-or very little-to work with as I punched or neck cranked them(neck cranks and breaks are in Wing Chun as well)

I will leave it up to you guys to discuss and debate how good he was vs wasn't-never happens etc-

and That was what brought me to the question

Thanks everybody

[unkokusai]

I have had people push my leg forward and up to break my structure-pull it forward etc--but i have always been able to get my base back quickly and hit them before anything happened-so far-LOL!

Who were these people, and what was the situation?

[sunfist]

I once hit a guys head on the ground and he EXPLODED.

[t_niehoff]

Third-Just because I have done some of it-doesn't mean I would be so foolish in a fight to try it against someone who really does it-or says they do-I fight my game my way because I know what I'm doing with it-I play to my strengths-not my weakness
My "personal" MMA includes Tai Chi,Ba Gua,Southern Preying Mantis,Silat,American Boxing and good ole WCK-so my game is to knock people down-not go down with them-

Nothing wrong with that strategy, and certainly it is smart to play to your strengths; however, as I pointed out, in self-defense situations or when fighting (sparring) with good people, we often don't have the luxury of choice.

Fourth-no disrespect intended-but I don't do it because I don't like to do it-and I am not good at it-and it doesn't suit me-and for no other reasons-I have no business rolling around on the floor-getting up,being slammed down,wriggling around and trying to get up again-if you haven't noticed-as we get older the floor gets harder and less comfortable

It boils down to what we personally want from our practice. We all make choices of how to train, what to train, etc. The important thing from my POV is that we make informed and intelligent choices.

One thing I really get tired of hearing is the "age excuse"; age has nothing to do with it. Inosanto took up BJJ at 60, and earned his BB at 70. The nature and demands of fighting doesn't change because we get older.

And whether we like a certain range or phase of fighting has nothing to do with it either. The ground, whether we like it or not, is a phase and/or range of fighting that we can find ourselves in -- against our wishes. While I think it smart and prudent to "fight our own game", experience will show us that we also have to be prepared for when things go awry. This is particularly true for the people concerned with "self-defense" or who want to fight recreationally or competitively: if you ignore the ground, you are leaving a large hole in your ability to defend yourself.

Now if someone just wants to box or do tai ji, for example, and that is their sole interest, that's great and who can argue with their choice of activities? But when the question turns to how well these activities (alone) prepare them for self-defense or fighting, then that's a horse of a different color.

I have had people push my leg forward and up to break my structure-pull it forward etc--but i have always been able to get my base back quickly and hit them before anything happened-so far-LOL!
Those that have gone for my legs-either single or double-I have always outflanked them and changed my base to give them nothing-or very little-to work with as I punched or neck cranked them(neck cranks and breaks are in Wing Chun as well)

I will leave it up to you guys to discuss and debate how good he was vs wasn't-never happens etc-

and That was what brought me to the question

Thanks everybody

While sparring/experience is important in evaluating all things martial, even more important is the quality of that sparring/experience. I've found that often we get away with things not because they (our techniques or tactics or skill) are particularly good but because our opponents are particularly bad. We can't reach sound conclusions about our performance (what we did, how well we did it, etc.) based on dealing with unskilled/bad people. This is why I say the truth is as close as your nearest MMA gym: they will have competant fighters who have solid skills in all ranges/phases. While I've heard many WCK people say they could use their WCK on the ground, couldn't get taken down, etc. -- and in some cases I believe what they are telling me is true -- these sorts of statements never come from people who mix it up with good people. The rejoinder I most often hear when I point this out is: OK, but I don't plan on fighting a good wrestler (with good takedown skills). To me, this says "I am not concerned with sound fighting skills, I just want it to work against really unskilled people." Certainly that is one choice.

[Wayfaring]

-His right leg was forward at the time-My left leg(TWC Left Side Horse-and I had the slight outside angle)) did a front kick/knee raise as bait-since I faked it before to see a reaction in my comfort range
-He went for it -His right arm circled in a scoop around my lower leg knee as he came forward-
-my first rule of kicking-if they block it or grab it-put it down!-So since I had the outside angle-I immediately slammed my leg and bodyweight down onto the floor but also along the outer edge of his entire right leg-this caused it to buckle-at the same time-he was not completely set and was still coming forward as I dropped my leg and weight-at the same time I used my right elbow into the side of his head in a push fashion and twisted to the left with it-spilling him over my right leg-he landed on his elbow-clear now?

From my experience the difference between a sucky single-leg takedown and a good single-leg takedown is penetration. If someone grabs your leg without penetration you have the balance and momentum to stomp the front leg / make it heavy. Or pull off the low-percentage move you describe here. If they have penetration, you are moving backwards and can't put your leg down.

If your left leg is forward on the fake, and you hit with a right elbow twisting motion to the left, how exactly is it you spill him over your right leg?

I have had people push my leg forward and up to break my structure-pull it forward etc--but i have always been able to get my base back quickly and hit them before anything happened-so far-LOL!
Those that have gone for my legs-either single or double-I have always outflanked them and changed my base to give them nothing-or very little-to work with as I punched or neck cranked them(neck cranks and breaks are in Wing Chun as well)

That sounds like you haven't really faced skilled takedowns or don't know what you're talking about. How exactly would you do a neck crank from trying to outflank a shoot? To me outflanking a good shot would usually involve a wh1zzer and a sprawl or some similar movements even if there are different terminology. Raising a leg to me would be like gift wrapping the takedown