Is BJJ like Taiji on the ground?

[Knifefighter]

Having had very limited exposure to BJJ I have a few questions. Would you say that BJJ groundfighting is similar to Taiji on the ground?

BJJ is more similar to wrestling, Sambo and judo because all are competitive and performance based. Most Taiji is not done this way. If it was, it too would be similar to wrestling, Sambo and judo.

[Fu-Pow]

BJJ is more similar to wrestling, Sambo and judo because all are competitive and performance based. Most Taiji is not done this way. If it was, it too would be similar to wrestling, Sambo and judo.

I'm not sure about the above statement. I've never studied wrestling, sambo and judo.

I can tell you that from what I do know and have seen, that there are differences. Taiji is not a simply a wrestling art, like all Chinese styles of kung fu it has Shuai, Ti, Da and Na. That is.... throwing, kicking, striking and locking.

Also, the thing that I think is unique about Taiji ,and correct me if I am wrong on this point in regards to other arts, is that the incoming force is almost always neutralized in an almost passive way before any force is issued.

Instead of "fighting for" position, in Taiji the opponent is left to kind of upset his own position through his own excessive force and then a counter attack (Shuai, Ti, Da or Na) is issued. (Sometimes the neutralization and counter happen so fast that they appear to be simultaneous.)

Perhaps at higher levels of Judo, Sambo and Wrestling this is the same (although I'm not sure they have Ti and Da)...but again having no real experience of them first hand I can't really say. My background is in Karate, TKD, Hung Gar, CLF and little bit of Aikido.

In terms of the Shuai aspect I'd say Taiji is probably most like Aikido.

[Knifefighter]

I'm not sure about the above statement. I've never studied wrestling, sambo and judo.

I can tell you that from what I do know and have seen, that there are differences. Taiji is not a simply a wrestling art, like all Chinese styles of kung fu it has Shuai, Ti, Da and Na. That is.... throwing, kicking, striking and locking.

Also, the thing that I think is unique about Taiji ,and correct me if I am wrong on this point in regards to other arts, is that the incoming force is almost always neutralized in an almost passive way before any force is issued.

Instead of "fighting for" position, in Taiji the opponent is left to kind of upset his own position through his own excessive force and then a counter attack (Shuai, Ti, Da or Na) is issued. (Sometimes the neutralization and counter happen so fast that they appear to be simultaneous.)

I was talking about just the grappling part. Take a couple of Taiji guys and tell them to go all out, trying to take each other down, throw or push each with each one trying as hard as he can. It will look much like other forms of grappling.

[Fu-Pow]

I was talking about just the grappling part. Take a couple of Taiji guys and tell them to go all out, trying to take each other down, throw or push each with each one trying as hard as he can. It will look much like other forms of grappling.

Yes, I'd say thats probably true but I would guess there would be a little more fluidity to it, one movement changing into the other with no gaps as each opponent tries to find the other opponents point of excessive resistance.

You see something similar sometimes in Judo (from the video and demos I've seen) where two opponents are feeling each other out trying to find a point of leverage. To the observer it looks like not much is happening and then whamo!, someone gets thrown or knocked down. Its the same idea in Taiji, its just that it doesn't always end in a throw, it could be a push, a strike, a lock, a sweep, a kick etc.

The Taiji founders codified the training method of listening and leading into a set of exercises which is typically called Push Hands (kind of misnomer.)

The way most people do push hands anyways is not correct, its too passive. In Taiji push hands there are two type of errors. One is called Ding and one is called Diu. Ding is "dumb force" where you are just resisting. Diu is "empty" meaning that you are too passive, you are running away and not actively leading the opponent. It usually ends up that the if you are Ding in one place in your body you are Diu in another.

The goal of Taiji is to stay in that zone between Diu and Ding through the whole body. Continuous and seamless (Taiji is sometimes called continuous fist). Not resisting but not letting go. This is the goal so that in the clinch when your opponent tries to "wrestle" you, you just lead them somewhere else that is not to their advantage and thats when you....whamo!.....apply your counter...whatever that might be.

(As an aside, the reason I made the switch over from CLF to Taiji exclusively is that the Taji strategy began to make alot more sense to me then trying to overwhelm your opponent with strikes to begin with. Also being a big guy subtlety is more important than raw power because when you're big you already have a lot of weight behind your strikes.)

So I'm wondering if BJJ is similar...just on the ground. I guess the only way to really find out is to go and find out.

Thanks

FP

[Fu-Pow]

Knifefighter-

P.S. Here's a pretty good representation of what I'm talking about. Granted, these guys aren't trying to take each others heads off and there is some choreography to it...... this is Taiji San Shou (ie fixed freestyle push hands.) You can see how he leads the opponent to an unfavorable position and then applies force. Sometimes the change in favorable position happens very quickly (like at 0:22).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DADYbpj4oMw

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter-

P.S. Here's a pretty good representation of what I'm talking about. Granted, these guys aren't trying to take each others heads off and there is some choreography to it...... this is Taiji San Shou (ie fixed freestyle push hands.) You can see how he leads the opponent to an unfavorable position and then applies force. Sometimes the change in favorable position happens very quickly (like at 0:22).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DADYbpj4oMw

That is not all out... and that is the reason it looks different from wrestling.

for example, some local taiji guys I like to go play with once in a while...

http://www.taichili.com/training_for...t_competit.htm

That second example is... and it looks very similar to what wrestling looks like when you are only trying to push your opponent. (Notice the fighting for underhooks and overwrap arm control when two people are going live vs. the artificial "push hands" when partners are compliant.)

Throw in takedowns and it would be even more similar to wrestling.

[Fu-Pow]

That is not all out... and that is the reason it looks different from wrestling.

Not all out....right I think I already said that in so many words...but it is "all out" within the confines of this competitive exercise. Just like Judo has competitive rules so does this exercise in Taji. This is just one version of Taiji San Shou. The other version is where you don't start in contact with each other and that's more like regular San Shou and you would be better off with adequate protection.

That second example is... and it looks very similar to what wrestling looks like when you are only trying to push your opponent. (Notice the fighting for underhooks and overwrap arm control when two people are going live vs. the artificial "push hands" when partners are compliant.)

Firstly, these people are also not going "all out."

Secondly, this is a very poor demonstration in terms of Taiji. My teacher, who is much more skilled than myself, could school any one of these people and not even blink an eye...for the following reason:

In Taiji one goal is to maintain Zhong Ding or central equilbrium. One very basic thing that means is if you relax you should not fall down by your own weight.

These people are leaning onto each other, if the other person was not their they would fall down. By any measure that is not good Taiji. If you look at my example you see that the person in control is also always under control of his own body, not already falling down. They are commiting both the errors that I mentioned they are Ding and they are Diu. Resisting force and hanging on each other.

As I stated, I don't know much about wrestling other than what I have observed. However, if you are equating this example of Taiji with wrestling then I don't think that wrestling is the same as Taiji for this very fundamental reason.

All out or not the Taiji player should have the very fundamental quality of Zhong Ding or uprightness.


FP

[cjurakpt]

I was talking about just the grappling part. Take a couple of Taiji guys and tell them to go all out, trying to take each other down, throw or push each with each one trying as hard as he can. It will look much like other forms of grappling.

for example, some local taiji guys I like to go play with once in a while...

http://www.taichili.com/training_for...t_competit.htm