What styles make up Kempo?

[David Jamieson]

One says its a rip off of Tiger and Crane, the other says no Hung Kuen evident.

Business as usual at KFO....

well, the form is the sequence of tiger crane as taken from a book, be it buck sam kongs or the lam sai wing one or , well pick one, they're virtually all the same on this set. Could've come form a video or from someone else who knew the set.

i don't think it was presented as Hung Gar and it's probably not right to say "that;'s hung gar" because it's not. It's an american kempo interpretation of what Hung gar might be? lol

ijn which case you are better off going to a bonafide Hung gar school if you actually want to learn the set.

in my opinion, there is too much value placed on sets as shapes and not as snap together functions.

I use them still, but not nearly as much as I used to. there's too much other stuff to do that has higher value overall in training. And it's still traditional stuff methodolgy wise, just not patterns.

[bakxierboxer]

One says its a rip off of Tiger and Crane, the other says no Hung Kuen evident.

Business as usual at KFO....

Not really.
See David's post re looking like it was taken from a book.
That's better wording of what I actually meant.

[bakxierboxer]

I actually agree with someone?
(not THAT unusual)
(or is it?)

well, the form is the sequence of tiger crane as taken from a book....

That's what I thought I was saying......

i don't think it was presented as Hung Gar and it's probably not right to say "that;'s hung gar" because it's not. It's an american kempo interpretation of what Hung gar might be? lol

Pretty much.....

ijn which case you are better off going to a bonafide Hung gar school if you actually want to learn the set.

True.

in my opinion, there is too much value placed on sets as shapes and not as snap together functions.

Linked (connected)(sequential) functions.

I use them still, but not nearly as much as I used to.

Strange, since they ARE what is meant by and constitutes "kung fu" "hands"......

there's too much other stuff to do that has higher value overall in training. And it's still traditional stuff methodolgy wise, just not patterns.

There IS a lot of "other stuff" that needs to be done to be a fully functional fighter. Among those things is learning to apply the "patterns" in an actual fight and applying them with "authority".

[Yum Cha]

Groovy - I get it. Maybe a taste of the Hung, i.e. Tiger and Crane form bits, but not the essence. Is that a fair cop?

Some of the combinations don't look much like Hung at all, they have more of southern hybrid with Karate look to me. Some of the Karate shapes, but a southern execution, in terms of pace and fluidity.

Keeping in mind, those are some big boys, and big boys play a little different than featherweights... or should I say skinny pip squeaks....

The story from the teacher is, it isParket Kenpo started as a "Shaolin" style, via Okinawa to Japan, to Parker in Hawaii. Thus theoretically, it should have some of the, I'm guessing, Lohan influence? Hung is the most easilly accessible Shaolin derivative, and I guess that explains my thinking... I know some of you guys are well versed in Hung.

Just for the record, I'm no expert, but I know those guys. I always liked Kenpo, being one of the more interesting American manifestations of traditinal martial arts, more flair and complexity than the Karate, Tae Kwon Do, spectrum, more traditional influence than the grapling, kickboxing spectrum. I also know a guy in Albuquerque, Fred Abshere who does a totally different kind of Kenpo, called Kodusho, which goes back to Shroinji, and has a lot more soft stuff - very shaolin - buried under the hard side.

[TenTigers]

well, as one who has taught kenpo and has been into Hung-Ga for over twenty odd years (very odd, in fact) I can see the connection. Many of the techniques, movements, etc come right out of the forms. It's like Hung-Ga movements taken to finishing techniques, in rapid-fire combinations. (this has influenced me and my teachings as well over the years) Then again, it may be from a more 'generic' Southern Siu-Lum-based style that Chow Kwai-Sun learned from his father, Chow-Hoon..
Ed Parker wrote, in Infinite insights to Kenpo, that when Mitose came to visit, and demonstrated his brand of kenpo, Parker's senior students were reather perplexed. Mitose's technique had none of the fluidity, or circular movements that Chow had, and many of his techniques put him in positions that left him vulnerable to attack. So it was more Chinese influenced by Japanese Karate, with sprinkings of Lua and Kali thrown into the melange. (melange sounds so much better than mish-mash)
Here's another tidbit to make things even more murky-Chow's old patch had the words in hanji-Choy Li Fut. Go figure. Well, the kenpo I learned had gwa,cup, sow, been, and charp, so who knows?
Who knows indeed? The present inheritor plays a system that barely resembles Parker/Tracy kenpo, Mitose's clan claims theuy are the deal, Pesare/Cerio/Villari offshoots are further from the source,Kajukenbo is another story entirely...
oh, one more thing-I had a training bro who was from Hawaii, and knew Chow. He said atthat time (80's) Chow was possibly suffering from dementia or alzhiemer's and was nearly destitute, and spent most of his time on the beaches collecting bottles and cans. Many of the people who claimed rank from him also were from that time. Connect those dots if ya want...

[bakxierboxer]

Groovy - I get it. Maybe a taste of the Hung, i.e. Tiger and Crane form bits, but not the essence. Is that a fair cop?

Maybe a bit more like someone saw the material in a book and was doing their "best" to "mimic" what they thought they saw.

Some of the combinations don't look much like Hung at all....

{chuckle!} That was my "major objection"!!!!

... they have more of southern hybrid with Karate look to me.

"hybrid (hī'brĭd) pronunciation
n.
1. Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races. "

Sounds kinda like they're describing a "mule"?
(IIRC, something worth noting about a REAL mule is that they are sterile....)

Some of the Karate shapes, but a southern execution, in terms of pace and fluidity.

Nah... it mostly looks like a relatively new-fangled Kenpo to me.

Keeping in mind, those are some big boys, and big boys play a little different than featherweights... or should I say skinny pip squeaks....

Well.... a couple of the bigger guys DID knock down some partitions and walls during an "impromptu sparring match". But, that's some of that "soft-style" Kajukenbo stuff.... nothing at all like "hard-style".......

The story from the teacher is, it isParket Kenpo started as a "Shaolin" style, via Okinawa to Japan, to Parker in Hawaii.

I don't really see a Shaolin connection.
There was native Okinawan "Te" and apparently some SE Asian variants of Fukien White Crane had an influence.
Kanbum Uechi is also said to have gone to China and picked up some "Pong Gai Noon".... although I don't think I've ever seen a reasonable translation of that name.

Thus theoretically, it should have some of the, I'm guessing, Lohan influence?

Please be my guest at the guessing guestimation....
(will that be more like a "party" or a "competition"?)

Hung is the most easilly accessible Shaolin derivative, and I guess that explains my thinking...

I think "most widely practiced" is a better fit.
Caveat emptor: "Your access may vary."

Just for the record, I'm no expert, but I know those guys. I always liked Kenpo, being one of the more interesting American manifestations of traditinal martial arts, more flair and complexity than the Karate, Tae Kwon Do, spectrum, more traditional influence than the grapling, kickboxing spectrum.

I don't dislike it.... except maybe for the "modern" "slappy stuff".
From my experience with it, I might choose to replace the "flair" term with the word "gusto"....

I also know a guy in Albuquerque, Fred Abshere who does a totally different kind of Kenpo, called Kodusho, which goes back to Shroinji, and has a lot more soft stuff - very shaolin - buried under the hard side.

{grunt!}
(don't know anyone in Albuquerque)
"No comment!"

[bakxierboxer]

well, as one who has taught kenpo.......

Which branch/line?

(melange sounds so much better than mish-mash)

I take it you're not using that in the "geological sense"?
{"Subduction! Tooorments mah haaart!"}
(Who IS/WAS "the REAL Ral Donner"?)

.... Pesare/Cerio/Villari offshoots are further from the source,Kajukenbo is another story entirely...

Sure, although the original Kajukenbo principals in the USA had also trained with Chow before going off with Emperado....

oh, one more thing-I had a training bro who was from Hawaii, and knew Chow. He said atthat time (80's) Chow was possibly suffering from dementia or alzhiemer's and was nearly destitute, and spent most of his time on the beaches collecting bottles and cans. Many of the people who claimed rank from him also were from that time. Connect those dots if ya want...

Not the kind of dots I like to connect.....

[jdhowland]

Don't think anyone has mentioned yet that Parker also was influenced by T. Y. Wong who was one of the first to teach gung fu openly in San Francisco. Wong taught what he called "internal and external Siu Lum."

I met Mr. Parker in 1975 and at that time he was trying to distance himself from the concepts of "Willy Chow and those guys" but described his system as originating in southern China.

James Mitose claimed that his art was a family heritage but there is no proof of this. On the other hand some have claimed that he actually learned a little Ryukyu kempo from Okinawans who visited Oahu in the 1930s and gave public demonstrations. I believe this is the origin of "Kosho Ryu" and is why he tried to cover his tracks by calling his style kempo jiu-jitsu and emphasizing that it was not karate. I think this explains the Ryukyu-style basics found in Parkers kenpo (in its earlier forms), Hawaiian kenpo and even Kajukenbo.