Forget the History, Forget the Politics

[Vajramusti]

Wing Chun does need to step up to survive, if it can, it will be a shame if it fails
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Wing chun wasa relatively small but effective style- 50 years ago. People saw just enough about it's effectiveness to dabble in it and create wing chun chain stores and clubs.

Good wing chun will always be there if good teachers and good students remain without worrying about the net and utube..

IMO- not someone else's- most self described wing chunners that I see are not doing good wing chun....neither fish nor fowl. Many folks should be doing something else and many are-... no problem as I see it.

joy chaudhuri

[AdrianUK]

Wing chun wasa relatively small but effective style- 50 years ago. People saw just enough about it's effectiveness to dabble in it and create wing chun chain stores and clubs.

Good wing chun will always be there if good teachers and good students remain without worrying about the net and utube..

IMO- not someone else's- most self described wing chunners that I see are not doing good wing chun....neither fish nor fowl. Many folks should be doing something else and many are-... no problem as I see it.

joy chaudhuri

Problem I see with this is the measure is out there in public now in the form of limited rules competitions, not the "it was effective 50 years ago because I was told it was". The sad lack of visible, identifiable wing chun working in the modern environment is damaging its reputation and I think that needs to be addressed before it gets sold as martial art when theres no proven fighting ability there

[sanjuro_ronin]

Problem I see with this is the measure is out there in public now in the form of limited rules competitions, not the "it was effective 50 years ago because I was told it was". The sad lack of visible, identifiable wing chun working in the modern environment is damaging its reputation and I think that needs to be addressed before it gets sold as martial art when theres no proven fighting ability there

For some people, the effectiveness of WC in modern sport fighting is irrelevant.
For some people, if its good enough for them in their limited scope of application, that is good enough.
To some people, no rules competition is not the yardstick to which MA are to be judged.
Though to be honest, none of these people have made it clear what is a good judge of WC's effectiveness.

[Vajramusti]

Frankly, I do not understand. There are enough people who learn and use one self defense system or the other who find what they do to be very effective for their self defense and dealing with dangerous situations- aside from considerations of health, knowledge and self devlopment.. Why do they need to use current media outlets for a viewing audience?

Does a top notch sniper test his skills with a general viewing audience.?
Did the original thuggees need to do their strangling for spectators?


For folks needing a win loss record or badges or awards or recognition- media events are understandable. Others do what they gotta do.If they are honest they will honeand adjust their training to keep it useful.

A good segment of spectators in televised boxing and other activities are just that- spectators
with limited knowledge of the details of the skills involved.

joy chaudhuri

PS I feel sorry for the turkeys today- lots of sacrifice of mass produced tasteless meat.

[t_niehoff]

How do we measure performance except through actual performance?

WCK is a fighting method. Your performance with a fighting method can only be determined from fighting (and not from nonfighting).

What determines your level of performance is the quality of opponent (how good of fighter they are) you can deal with.

Fighting in the street is performance. But what is the quality of opponent? Fighting in a ring or gym we can have a good idea of the quality of opponent, and so our performance level. Same with boxing. I may out-box some guy in the street but what does that say about my boxing skill? Just that I was better than him. But if I can consistently hold my own against Golden Glove boxers, that tells me something about my level of performance, abouthow good my boxing is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How do we measure performance except through actual performance?

WCK is a fighting method. Your performance with a fighting method can only be determined from fighting (and not from nonfighting).

What determines your level of performance is the quality of opponent (how good of fighter they are) you can deal with.

Fighting in the street is performance. But what is the quality of opponent? Fighting in a ring or gym we can have a good idea of the quality of opponent, and so our performance level. Same with boxing. I may out-box some guy in the street but what does that say about my boxing skill? Just that I was better than him. But if I can consistently hold my own against Golden Glove boxers, that tells me something about my level of performance, abouthow good my boxing is.

This is the very outlook that drove so many old time MA to test their skills and develop new systems, so one must ask, " when did this become a "bad" thing" ??

[AdrianUK]

Frankly, I do not understand. There are enough people who learn and use one self defense system or the other who find what they do to be very effective for their self defense and dealing with dangerous situations- aside from considerations of health, knowledge and self devlopment.. Why do they need to use current media outlets for a viewing audience?

Does a top notch sniper test his skills with a general viewing audience.?
Did the original thuggees need to do their strangling for spectators?


For folks needing a win loss record or badges or awards or recognition- media events are understandable. Others do what they gotta do.If they are honest they will honeand adjust their training to keep it useful.

A good segment of spectators in televised boxing and other activities are just that- spectators
with limited knowledge of the details of the skills involved.

joy chaudhuri

PS I feel sorry for the turkeys today- lots of sacrifice of mass produced tasteless meat.

Ok what I mean is, and has been said on here, Wing chun is a fighting art that fails to fight in most cases. What is going to happen to an art that attracts and relies on to propagate practioners that can't and or don't fight with it ? Defending in a SD situation is one thing but its a very limited situation for testing against. Sport fighting gives the opportunity to apply against skill and that is the only way I can see to improve or even maintain a fighting quality to the art.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wing Chun is a close quarter striking system, and I think wing chun can (and has been) street effective due to the close quarter standup nature of how most fights begin: your opponent is right in your face and talking 5hit.

So it shouldn't be surprising that many people have testified to it's usefulness and street-effectiveness when trained realistically, ie.- frequent sparring.

But Terence puts his finger on a good point: just how skilled is that guy in the street you may have fought?

Wing Chun needs to be pressure tested consistently against people who have been trained well in other arts - and there is precious little of this kind of thing going on, it seems to me.

And then when you throw in all the wing chun "politics" and the wing chun "history" that is always connected seemingly by definition to the politics....

you have a system that now exists on the fringe of the martial arts world, imo. And this is a shame, because the art has a lot to offer.

[Vajramusti]

"Wing Chun needs to be pressure tested consistently against peole who have been trained well in other arts - and there is precious little of this kind of thing going on, it seems to me."
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Agreed that one needs to test what they have against competent people and not just from the same style.How do you know that this doesnt happen for some serious people? The vista that one views is not necessarily the universe is it? I dont presume to know what is happening
in every kwoon, street corner or alley. And does one need to know from the approval of net list readers what works and what doesn't?

joy chaudhuri

PS_Wing chun is not justa close quarters system. It helps the user to defend himself/herself...
period.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"PS_Wing chun is not just a close quarters system." (Joy)

***I really have to smile every time I read or hear this. The following is how this very website FORUMS define it:

WING CHUN
The world's most popular form of Southern Kung Fu, Wing Chun is characterized by short range power, center-line strategy and sticking and deflecting techniques.


***Huum...short range power?! So one is not at short range when applying short range power? Not at short range when sticking or deflecting?

[golgo]

"PS_Wing chun is not just a close quarters system." (Joy)

***I really have to smile every time I read or hear this. The following is how this very website FORUMS define it:

WING CHUN
The world's most popular form of Southern Kung Fu, Wing Chun is characterized by short range power, center-line strategy and sticking and deflecting techniques.


***Huum...short range power?! So one is not at short range when applying short range power? Not at short range when sticking or deflecting?

I would think the dragon pole would be more long range, right? I've never even held one, so I wouldn't really know its applications though.

[TenTigers]

What is going to happen to an art that attracts and relies on to propagate practioners that can't and or don't fight with it ? .

the reality is (and I am not saying this is good or bad, it just is) that many teachers are only looking to pass on their art to a small number of people. If they teach a hundred and only a few get it, they are satisfied.
The problem is, there are many teachers who for reasons unknown, do not pass on their hand. If each family of Wing Chun, or for that matter, each family of each style of TCMA, produced one Alan Orr, it would be good numbers.


So, history and politics aside, why do you think so many teachers do not pass on their hand at all?
-besides the ones who don't have it to begin with? So let's dispense with that, and also dispense with the coaches versus fighters argument-it's been covered.

[SAAMAG]

"PS_Wing chun is not just a close quarters system." (Joy)

***I really have to smile every time I read or hear this. The following is how this very website FORUMS define it:

WING CHUN
The world's most popular form of Southern Kung Fu, Wing Chun is characterized by short range power, center-line strategy and sticking and deflecting techniques.


***Huum...short range power?! So one is not at short range when applying short range power? Not at short range when sticking or deflecting?

Then again, some people's boxing is pretty much short range as well. Some people like long slapping jabs, and long hooks, and long, overreaching straights. Some people prefer close-in "dirty boxing" or peekaboo styles. Couldn't some people's wing chun also be more extended than others?

At the same time though....I'd agree fully that wing chun as I know it is moreso a close combat system, and one that best used at it's most effective range. Classifying wing chun as a "long range" art is (no pun intended) reaching a bit.

[SAAMAG]

I would think the dragon pole would be more long range, right? I've never even held one, so I wouldn't really know its applications though.

In a weapons context, yes the pole has a longer physical range. The movements to achieve that power however are short. You won't see wing chun guys flinging the pole all over their bodies in elongated movements like you would in wushu.

But I think what the subject is about here is moreso hand-to-hand.

[AdrianUK]

the reality is (and I am not saying this is good or bad, it just is) that many teachers are only looking to pass on their art to a small number of people. If they teach a hundred and only a few get it, they are satisfied.
The problem is, there are many teachers who for reasons unknown, do not pass on their hand. If each family of Wing Chun, or for that matter, each family of each style of TCMA, produced one Alan Orr, it would be good numbers.


So, history and politics aside, why do you think so many teachers do not pass on their hand at all?
-besides the ones who don't have it to begin with? So let's dispense with that, and also dispense with the coaches versus fighters argument-it's been covered.

Before you hold Alan Orr up as an example I would take a good look at his fight footage and see how much recognisable wing chun is in there. And don't start saying its all in the principles, to claim wing chun use it has to have recognisable moves from wing chun