Forget the History, Forget the Politics

[Knifefighter]

I'm not saying try to convince a local pro/am fighter to do chi sau sessions for an hour and a half and have tea. They already have their competition teams they are training with. MMA fighters are developed.

Sorry, my bad. I thought you were saying MMA fighters would be training with WC methods.

I mean, you did a little bit of maybe not-so-great wing chun, left it and trained BJJ and MMA. That's not the only path. There's better stuff there in wing chun.

When you've gone out and tested your training in all the venues I I have done with mine, then you can judge whether or not my WC training was somehow inferior compared to other WC training methods. Until that point, you are just making clueless assumptions and talking out your a$$.

[TenTigers]

When you've gone out and tested your training in all the venues I I have done with mine, then you can judge whether or not my WC training was somehow inferior compared to other WC training methods. Until that point, you are just making clueless assumptions.

it's pretty easy for us to make these assumptions as your posts indicate that you seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Frankly, up till now, I wasn't even aware that you had trained in any Chinese Martial Arts.
Don't get me wrong-I have a great respect for you as a fighter for what you have done, constantly testing and pushing yourself. Your resume speaks for itself. It's just that you have never mentioned your CMA experience, and from your posts, one gets the impression that you are simply bashing CMA without having actually trained in it.

[m1k3]

I mean, you did a little bit of maybe not-so-great wing chun, left it and trained BJJ and MMA. That's not the only path. There's better stuff there in wing chun.

That could be me except that it is BJJ only. As for the better stuff in wing chun, I'm going to assume it's there. That being the case why is the good stuff given out in tiny little quantities? I learned significantly more useful stuff in my 1st 6 months of BJJ than I did in wing chun.

[taojkd]

That could be me except that it is BJJ only. As for the better stuff in wing chun, I'm going to assume it's there. That being the case why is the good stuff given out in tiny little quantities? I learned significantly more useful stuff in my 1st 6 months of BJJ than I did in wing chun.

MMA, BJJ, FMA, and Wing Chun. I have found wing chun in a lot of different striking arts. From FMA to the boxing/mt in MMA and i find it makes me a better fighter. I think that there is a lot of chun in MMA striking. A lot of counter punching and clinching techniques that are not unique to wing chun, but the sense of touch method of training them is.

To say that you have learned more useful stuff in your 1st 6 months of BJJ than in WC is a very subjective statement. One could learn more about striking (in general) in 6 months of WC than at an MMA school. I did. Depends on the instructors teaching methods and the students willingness to test his/her skills in a live environment (i.e. NOT chi-sau)

[Wayfaring]

I agree with hard-core training, good cardio, stregthening, etc for any MA. I am curious what MMA-training methods are WC player to take up?

Cardio / strength is sometimes included in sessions or sometimes just put as a separate class on the schedule, as it has global appeal.

In addition to hands, which a good WC school should be able to transition into easily, other skills necessary to train are clinch range drills (which a good wing chun bridge should also help with), drills with a backstop like a cage or padded wall, takedowns and defenses, and ground skills. Some of those might require outside expertise. If you train them, even some, you learn to defend against them better realistically. Or if there are "purists" only train that for a fight team or something.

As far as training methods, a few general suggestions:

• A good boxing ring timer that you can turn on an interval. Integrate 6 minute round "live" application sparring of what you're training. Do that for every class, every technique
• Open mat times on schedule - supported by a culture of getting advanced people to attend. Timed round sparring.
• Cardio / strength class that's tough - like a Crossfit "Fight Gone Bad" workout type
• Spar with gear - at least 14 oz gloves, and also with MMA gloves for different sessions. Use timer for rounds sparring.

Isn't it more the individual's focus and desire in thier trianing that makes the difference? I am not sure WC training methods aren't any worse than MMA, it's more the focus and intensity that matters most? (of course, along with trianing against quality opponents, but that's kinda the same thing).

Partially, yes that is what makes the difference. However, there are some skillsets that if they are not developed leave a huge gap to be exploited. Training and intensity and being well-rounded too is better.

I've met some 'MMA guys' that most likely couldn't fight thier way out of a paper bag, and WC guys that really can fight. What I am trying to get at is, I don't think it's really a fault of inproper training methods that are art-specific (but I would agree they exist), but more the mentality of the individual training - MMA, WC or otherwise.

The local shows many times get really bad because they throw in 18 year olds with 3 months of any overall training. Even so, it's like throwing someone in a river to teach them to swim. You get these 20 year olds with 10 fight amateur records. It forces intensity and focus. They tend to improve quickly.

It's not so much art-specific as it is mentality-specific as you mention. But anyways those are a couple of ideas that may or may not be useful.

[Wayfaring]

When you've gone out and tested your training in all the venues I I have done with mine, then you can judge whether or not my WC training was somehow inferior compared to other WC training methods. Until that point, you are just making clueless assumptions and talking out your a$$.

Yes, I am totally making assumptions about your WC training. I don't know if they are completely clueless as they are somewhat based on your posts, but OK. It's just my impression that there's a lot more better stuff out there available in wing chun than what you experienced in wing chun. But it's just an impression as I know next to nothing about your WC training background.

Your BJJ experience is a more known quantity under Caique, as is your Dog Bros. and small show experience - all of which gives you cred speaking on the topic of MMA training, aliveness weapons, and BJJ.

So anyway not to focus on individuals any suggestions from your experience on specific training methods a WC school should implement to bring it into what would be effective in today's environment?

[Wayfaring]

That could be me except that it is BJJ only. As for the better stuff in wing chun, I'm going to assume it's there. That being the case why is the good stuff given out in tiny little quantities? I learned significantly more useful stuff in my 1st 6 months of BJJ than I did in wing chun.

You know, I don't know why it develops slower. Good stuff in tiny little quantities may be all that can be digested at one sitting or something. But I certainly have heard from people a whole lot better than me in WC that it takes longer to develop skill in WC. I like both actually - BJJ and WC. I don't want WC to become obsolete - I've learned awesome things in it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You develop faster in grappling systems because it is more natural and easier to get "good" at, probably because you can go all out from almost the very beginning.
That and no one is trying to smash your face in.

[sihing]

You know, I don't know why it develops slower. Good stuff in tiny little quantities may be all that can be digested at one sitting or something. But I certainly have heard from people a whole lot better than me in WC that it takes longer to develop skill in WC. I like both actually - BJJ and WC. I don't want WC to become obsolete - I've learned awesome things in it.

I've come to realize that learning what WC/VT has to offer is complex and very hard (probably why it is not meant to be learned by the masses, and if so, then one has to modify it to make it easier to absorb, which leads to the problems we have today in the art), but the application of it is much simplier. It's a very precise art form, with most everything not very natural for people to learn (elbows in, facing, centerling aim and awareness, etc...). Also the ideas and concepts it promotes and teaches us are very different from what people think about regarding combat and the such, so there is sometimes a problem with people understanding exactly what they are learning and why. People also become bored with the repeating of drills, with the idea of absorbing the subtle attributes the art teaches us. Plus, skill in striking IMO is harder to develop and apply than skill in grappling, since in striking, one has a harder time controlling an opponent since he has more mobility and access to his tools. When grappling with someone, and taking them down takes away their mobility and what they can do to counter you, unless of course they have the same skills you do in that area.

James

[sihing]

You develop faster in grappling systems because it is more natural and easier to get "good" at, probably because you can go all out from almost the very beginning.
That and no one is trying to smash your face in.

Couldn't agree more

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ grappling being more easily learned than striking. That is a completely false statement.

[Ultimatewingchun]

What are your thoughts on the yearly Lei Tai competition in Hunt Valley, MD (that Master Redmond has posted videos of)? I have said before that I am very new to WC (less than 3 months), but I have set this as a goal for myself (to compete next summer). That may be an unrealistic goal, but I am always in favor of setting my goals too high rather than too low.

Do they have these types of competitions where you are?

***THAT'S a good one to go, yeah. No, these types of events don't exist here in NYC to my knowledge.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I AGREE, but I would add that the whole "politics" of wing chun (which almost always includes a link to somebody's "version" of history)...the politics of it all contributes greatly to the lack of proper training methods."

This whole thread was founded on politics and political views (not to mention personal differences). It was a response to another thread regarding a seminar on history. To continue to complain about politics, other people's training methods that differ from our own, and how it is 'ruining WC' is no better (probably worse), and only promotes more politics.
Why not let personal differences go (and politics) and just talk about the training methods & concepts of WC and stop mixing the two? It would be a good step in trying to move atoward a more productive thread..

***YOU'RE the one who's making this personal, JP...

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The point is-whether WING CHUN fighters would be interested in training this way. Thus-becoming Wing Chun/MMA fighters, not the other way around.
The idea is to bring the modern,current training methodology to TCMA schools.
this has nothing to do with technique. It has to do with trainig and the willingness of the teachers to implement that training in their respective schools."


***Spot on, Ten Tigers...

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL @ grappling being more easily learned than striking. That is a completely false statement.

Not really, think about it.
We grapple as kids, sure its hardly scientific or trained.
Its just more natural.
Heck Behring said as much in a seminar over here once, Fabiano told me the same thing.
Most grapplers would agree that learning to grapple is more natural, hence easier, than learning to drive your fist into someones vitals.
Not sure why you would think otherwise to be truthful.