Just good body mechanics?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, why are you being intellectually dishonest? That argument has been repeatedly demonstrated to be nonsense, yet you continue to cite it. A person doesn't need to study or practice something to be able to look at the evidence of its results.

Your intellectual dishonesty just demonstrates how you really can't offer anything else.

How many time your cite the Intellectual dishonesty term which for me means nothing but playing with words for argument shake. hahaha?


See, Truth is nothing to do with intellectual.

and in this case, you dont know the Truth of IMA because you dont know.

I know it because I have known those who live with IMA practice;
and IMA even become their health management/support aids.

and you just cant accept that right? hahaha

Who is said the world has to be spinning according to Terence?

[Liddel]

Who is said the world has to be spinning according to Terence?

How do you know the world is spinning at all Hendrik, how do you know the stars arent spinning around a static stationary earth at the center of the universe ?

People come up with ideas and based on observation and experimentation, test those theories validity.

I know it because I have known those who live with IMA practice;
and IMA even become their health management/support aids.

So based on your observation the internal approach has effect on these people you mention. But how does one determine that the results are the direct effect of IMA practice and not for the sake of argument... say placebo effect ?

Do you see what im saying, most people these days bang on about global warming and how its a problem... the issue is not wether there is global warming but rather the cause... is it because of humans letting carbons into the atmosphere or a natural part of a global cycle.... So

How do you determine that the results of IMA (specific to those using the internals for health management/support aids) are indeed direct results from IMA and not placebo effect or increased blood flow from body mechanics or rather actually just doing a task...? etc etc

Which lends back to KF - how come we dont see those using the IMA approach attaining higher results than those with plain old Body mechanics approach and how come that doesnt extend into other areas of physical activity beyond fighting...like sports ?

Im legitimatly curious....

DREW

[Hendrik]

How do you know the world is spinning at all Hendrik, how do you know the stars arent spinning around a static stationary earth at the center of the universe ?

That is your questions. not mine. So you got to solve it yourself.

if you go to sleep tonight and not waking up tomorrow morning what is all these stars spinning stuffs anyway?

hahaha.

So based on your observation the internal approach has effect on these people you mention. But how does one determine that the results are the direct effect of IMA practice and not for the sake of argument... say placebo effect ?

it is like eating lunch, one will be full if one had eaten real food. One cant believe oneself to become full.

However, one needs to get Real Food .

That is the difficult part for IMA, most people are thinking Pictures of Food as Food and keep talking and arguing and defending, sure, one can believe and talking and arguing that way 100000000000 years but never eat a thing.


IE such as the following.

internal arts focus on complete relaxation and complete coordination of the body and the mind for speed/power.

This is delusion which lead to no where like thinking about eating the picture food.


We today can tune the mind and body via Biofeedback machine into different state or alter-state. We talk about entering Alpha state ..ect.
alpha state is certainly and absolutely not Complete relaxation and complete coordination but a state.

Can one's training process get one there at will? the true IMA guy with a process can, even if the depth or how well into the state is depend the individual's practice; but the IMA process training does be able to get one there at will, for example.


Thus, making the above "Complete.." statements just tell one that is delusion because they dont even know the state exist. No to mention enter into it.....

Which lends back to KF - how come we dont see those using the IMA approach attaining higher results than those with plain old Body mechanics approach and how come that doesnt extend into other areas of physical activity beyond fighting...like sports ?

Dont know and dont really care what others using or not using similar to some use Viagra some dont. some even dont need to have sex.

But then, dont those high end Sport people using biofeedback to enter different states? what is that in the Chinese IMA term? the term is "internal training " isnt it?



You know, I dont really care for defending or attacking on these IMA stuffs....etc. why not get the IMA process, train it, get the modern Biofeedback... process, train it, then from there draw a conclusion based on the result and experience one got.

instead of these no end arguement like argue about religion which is just wasting life.



Ok, saying this, let me share with you. Chi Sau, yup, Chi Sau in WCK, is a basic training for Issuing or manupulating 3 D force vectors trajectory, but what has it becomes today?


Disregard of what it is become today does anyone know how to drill on project/manupulate the 3 D force vectors trajectory?
to be real honest, we ( I included) today doesnt have a clue on how these are done.
Thus, we cant operate close body as WCK once upon the time is.

if one keeping training in spearing a 6 feet pole, one will not know what to do and the body doesnt know the mechanics when the oponent enter the 3 feet zone. and that is the outcome one can expect.


Well, too long a story, the State entering, the 3 D force vectors trajectory projection...... those are IMA in today's term. Why make it so mysterious?

it is real.

[Pacman]

Are you saying that internal arts are using the same body mechanics as everyone else?

perhaps i misunderstood your point. when you said internal arts have a concept of a 'universal mechanic' it sounded like you meant that internal arts believe there is one way to do every movement. im saying that there is no grand unifying mechanic belief in the internal arts. this is not to say, that they do things the same as everyone else.

You can't have "complete relaxation" since our muscles to move, to maintain posture, etc. need to contract.

right. 'complete' is not to be taken literally. of course if there was no tension at all you would fall to the floor like a wet towel. when i said 'complete' i meant as much as possible. the degree of relaxation sought by internal arts is in general much higher compared to others. i have met some sifus and when they do chi sao their arms feel like rubber. people said when sum nung did the wooden dummy form or when he fought, his arms looked like whips.

All athletes have coordination and focus. How is this any different?

if you read my post i acknowledged that other athletes desire the same things, but the methods of training are different. i explained that specifically.

This is one great example of why "internal art" training doesn't work. All athletes learn when to exert themselves, when to rest, when to relax, when to explode, etc. by doing the activity (sport) itself. You can't learn how to do this is boxing or grappling by not boxing or grappling.

this is where i disagree. im not saying you can learn how to box without boxing, but you can't always learn everything by just doing that activity.

here is a very easy to understand example and point

tension, mental and physical, is natural under stressful situations like fighting. 99/100 people when put into a fight for the first time will tense up. physical tension slows you down physically, tires you out quicker. mental tension slows your reaction time and more.

the tense state can develop into a bad habit even if you are aware of it, although most people are not.

so it is helpful to do forms of trainign other than pure fighting to improve this.

its like boxers (your favorite) using a speed bag to improve hand eye coordination. sometimes you want to focus on a specific area of fighting training and not just jump into the ring over and over again.

MT fighters train like athletes. And that's why they can be "relaxed" while fighting. And why "internal martial artists" can't.

all i can say is that i disagree. just look at your favorite UFC guys. bj penn and anderson sylva look pretty relaxed to me physically. of course i cant tell for sure but from their facial expressions they look more mentally relaxed than others.

compare them to someone like forrest griffin.

there is a difference

internal stylists just stress the importance of a relaxed mind and body more than others and train for that specific goal. you can disagree to its usefulness but you CAN relax

In BJJ, we often do sparring rounds where we try to stay as relaxed as possible. Internal BJJ! Woo hoo!

thats an idiotic comment. its called an internal martial art not because it is the only one that trains internal aspects or trains only internal aspects but because internal aspects are the main focus.

[Pacman]

I think "internal" a while back meant we keep it in the family, and we don't tell others.

you're not serious, right?

[anerlich]

Quote:
Originally Posted by anerlich
In BJJ, we often do sparring rounds where we try to stay as relaxed as possible. Internal BJJ! Woo hoo!

thats an idiotic comment. its called an internal martial art not because it is the only one that trains internal aspects or trains only internal aspects but because internal aspects are the main focus.

Well Thank you. It was an intentionally facetious comment in the midst of many unintentionally facetious ones.

Tim Cartmell, a pretty high level practitioner of internal MA and BJJ black belt, thinks BJJ has internal aspects. Go to his forum and tell him he's an idiot too.

I trained intensively in the normally recognised internal MA's for five years. I'm quite sure I know a lot more about them than you. Not all internal MA practice is "soft" or "relaxed".

all i can say is that i disagree. just look at your favorite UFC guys. bj penn and anderson sylva look pretty relaxed to me physically. of course i cant tell for sure but from their facial expressions they look more mentally relaxed than others.

compare them to someone like forrest griffin.

there is a difference

internal stylists just stress the importance of a relaxed mind and body more than others and train for that specific goal. you can disagree to its usefulness but you CAN relax

Yeah, but BJ Penn and Anderson Silva would laugh at you if you said they were internal martial artists. I don't see how their performances and their types of training advance the case for internal MA practice in becoming an efficient fighter. If it gave these guys any sort of edge with all that money involved, they'd be doing it in a heartbeat. But they aren't.

An appropriate level of relaxation assists many physical activities. But produce the evidence that internal MA practice is required to achieve it. There are simpler ways to learn and achieve relaxation that do not have IMA's mystical baggage attached. And experience and familiarisation with the stress of fighting are needed as well if you are going to fight without undue stress and tension.

[Yoshiyahu]

So is there a way to make your body mechanics stronger???

Hendrik, why are you being intellectually dishonest? That argument has been repeatedly demonstrated to be nonsense, yet you continue to cite it. A person doesn't need to study or practice something to be able to look at the evidence of its results.

Your intellectual dishonesty just demonstrates how you really can't offer anything else.

[t_niehoff]

right. 'complete' is not to be taken literally. of course if there was no tension at all you would fall to the floor like a wet towel. when i said 'complete' i meant as much as possible. the degree of relaxation sought by internal arts is in general much higher compared to others. i have met some sifus and when they do chi sao their arms feel like rubber. people said when sum nung did the wooden dummy form or when he fought, his arms looked like whips.

This is nothing special -- this is what all athletes do. It has nothing to do with "internal" or "external", what you are calling "relaxation" comes from FAMILIARITY, from doing it so much that your body naturally uses just what it needs to get the task done.

if you read my post i acknowledged that other athletes desire the same things, but the methods of training are different. i explained that specifically.

Yes, and that different (internal) way of training doesn't work.

this is where i disagree. im not saying you can learn how to box without boxing, but you can't always learn everything by just doing that activity.

Sure you can. You learn and develop any physical skill by doing that skill -- not by doing something else. You learn and develop the ability to ride a bike by and through riding a bike, to surf by actually surfing, to swim by actually swimming, and so on.

here is a very easy to understand example and point

tension, mental and physical, is natural under stressful situations like fighting. 99/100 people when put into a fight for the first time will tense up. physical tension slows you down physically, tires you out quicker. mental tension slows your reaction time and more.

the tense state can develop into a bad habit even if you are aware of it, although most people are not.

so it is helpful to do forms of trainign other than pure fighting to improve this.

Forms, drill, ets. can't and won't help you develop the ability to not tense up when fighting. The ONLY way to develop that is by familiarity, by fighting. The more you fight, the more you become accustomed to it.

You believe this "internal" training works NOT FROM EXPERIENCE but from theory, from imagining that's how it should work.

its like boxers (your favorite) using a speed bag to improve hand eye coordination. sometimes you want to focus on a specific area of fighting training and not just jump into the ring over and over again.

The speed bag is for conditioning. It's common for fighters to do lots of conditioning exercises since that's what gets their body prepared for the sparring.

all i can say is that i disagree. just look at your favorite UFC guys. bj penn and anderson sylva look pretty relaxed to me physically. of course i cant tell for sure but from their facial expressions they look more mentally relaxed than others.

compare them to someone like forrest griffin.

there is a difference

internal stylists just stress the importance of a relaxed mind and body more than others and train for that specific goal. you can disagree to its usefulness but you CAN relax

All good fighters, just like all good atheltes, look "relaxed" since by being highly skilled, their bodies have learned when to turn it on and when to turn it off. This is nothing special. Good, athletic training develops that.

[t_niehoff]

So is there a way to make your body mechanics stronger???

Of coruse there is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you're not serious, right?

There is actually some truth to that, to what extent is unknown, but for some time, the division of Internal and External was based on what was kept "inner" and what was taught to the outside.
Also, at one time the difference was that Inernal = CMA and External = MA that were forgien.

[couch]

FWIW, I also see Internal MA as something different.

Example: Qigong or Tai Chi I think are IMA. When I perform my Qigong set, I can feel the energy coursing through my body. Can I teach that to someone else? No. I can teach them the 'shell' of it, but they have to experience it for themselves.

So, I feel that the IMA is a PERSONAL experience. Can it help someone to fight? Perhaps - but this is where concepts and ideas can blur.

I can see where T might be going with all of this. The more gobble-dee-goop you give to someone to sift through, the more confusing it becomes. When you are taught to punch in a boxing gym, you glove up and start hitting...and you are 'coached' on how to hit. Given 'ideas' on how to improve the body mechanics of it all. For the mostpart - you teach yourself how to do things because if you do it right, you get results.

Anywho...this topic is maybe too far and wide. Keep it going...

[Hendrik]

There is actually some truth to that, to what extent is unknown, but for some time, the division of Internal and External was based on what was kept "inner" and what was taught to the outside.
Also, at one time the difference was that Inernal = CMA and External = MA that were forgien.

Sure, in one catagory, Shao Lin is external, Wu Dang is internal.

However, that is not what is discussed.




there is TCMA Internal art. and it is well define.



Wang Xiang Zai the founder of Da Chen Chuan have even make a summary and put it in written as clearly as the following.


禅家者流，乘有大小，宗有南北，道有正邪，学者须从最上乘，具正法眼，悟第一义。若小乘禅，非 正法也，论拳 如论禅，内家拳则第一义也，外家拳，则小乘禅，已落第二义矣。

大抵禅道，惟在妙悟，拳道亦在妙悟。然悟有深浅，有分限，有透彻之悟，有但得一知半解之悟。意 拳，应不立招术，乃透彻之悟也。意拳，即大乘拳也。不立招术，乃透彻之悟也。其它拳术，虽有所 悟，但皆立招 设术，俱非第一义也。若以为不然，则是见拳之不广，参拳之不熟耳。试取外家拳谱而熟参之，次取 太极，八卦而 熟参之，其真 是非，自有不能隐者 !



I have asked that claim to know it all Yi Chuan EXPERT BO TOXIC to explain the above. I am still waiting.

anyone like to help translate it? Thanks.

[chusauli]

"Internal" has many connotations, as does "external":

Internal - Daoist
External - Buddhit

I - Family
E - not related

I - Disciple
E - Student

I - Soft
E - Hard

I -trains the Qi
E- trains skin, sinew, and bones

I - Tai Ji, Xing Yi and Ba Gua "brothers" Cheng Ting Hua, Guo Yun Sheng, Liu De Kuan
E - Anyone not part of that brotherhood

I - Special Students who pay $3K
E - Regular students who pay monthly fees

I - Xin, Qi, Li
E - Hips/Shoulders, Knees/Elbows, Feet/Hands

And so on...

[Hendrik]

I - Special Students who pay $3K
E - Regular students who pay monthly fees


And so on...

What did the special students learn? get a Mac Airbook http://store.apple.com/us/browse/hom...UBrandTerms-US
for the seminal.


I- Apple
E-IBM pc

[chusauli]

Special Students under Moy Yat and Lee Moy Shan learned a special variation of Lop Geng Sao which allowed them to poke their opponent in the eye with their thumb.

And the $3K meant that they were "special" to their Sifu.

They didn't get a Mac Book Air.