What do you think?

[t_niehoff]

I love how the rules of a sport component of an art dictate to you what it is. They happen, but they are used to control rather than tap. Listen to Duke's story. Do you want to call him a liar?

The "rules" define muay thai.

http://www.muaythai-fighting.com/mua...-Thai-Rules-18

Muay thai doesn't ahve arm bars since they are illegal.

[Knifefighter]

Who is telling you that there are no arm locks in Muay thai? That's all you need to know. I fought in the U.S., but I did not train in American Kicboxing.

There are thousands of clips of Muay Thai fights. Please point us to even one of those clips where a fight was finished with a standing arm bar.

Just one. Out of thousands.... just one.

The fact that you think there are arm bars in MT pretty much proves the point that, not only are you clueless about standing grappling clinch work, you are also clueless about Muay Thai.

You are a perfect example of a pretend, theoretical non-fighter who bases his conclusions on theories rather than demonstrable facts.

[Knifefighter]

I love how the rules of a sport component of an art dictate to you what it is. They happen, but they are used to control rather than tap. Listen to Duke's story. Do you want to call him a liar?

BTW, if you had actually ever used the technique he is showing against someone who is halfway athletic with a bit of MT plum control skill, you would know that in the majority of cases you don't end up with the arm extended like that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some Duke Roufus guy agrees with me about the Muay Thai Arm bar. He tells a story about that type of arm bar as well. His trainer in Thai Land used that to great effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYI8-...eature=related


Malipet does as well, but I can't produce the video at the moment.

The leverage is one the shoulder, not the elbow, its not an Arm bar .

[Frost]

Duke has a few fights on youtube. He is completely devistating. If you haven't taken the time to look, check it out, and get back with me. I like Duke becasue he has great hands and footwork and his kicks are insane. H breaks legs.

And Hoost doesn't have great hands and legs, doesn't Ko guys with ease, and isn't devistating... didn't win K1 god knows how many times fighting the best in the world?

Duke was good but he is not anywhere close to Hoost sorry

[Knifefighter]

Duke has a few fights on youtube. He is completely devistating. If you haven't taken the time to look, check it out, and get back with me. I like Duke becasue he has great hands and footwork and his kicks are insane. H breaks legs.

Nobody is disputing his skill as a fighter. What we are explaining to you is the fact that the technique he is showing is not a finishing move. It is designed to take away the opponent's ability to control you from the plumb. The fact that you don't see this points to the probability that you have not actually competed in this environment.

Notice how Rufus never says there is a finishing arm bar there. Like most theoretical non-fighters, you are "extrapolating" based on what you think could happen, rather than basing your conclusions on what actually does happen.

[Frost]

Nobody is disputing his skill as a fighter. What we are explaining to you is the fact that the technique he is showing is not a finishing move. It is designed to take away the opponent's ability to control you from the plumb. The fact that you don't see this points to the probability that you have not actually competed in this environment.

i can't comment on the clip because i can't view it at work, however i have never seen an arm lock/bar in thai boxing, i have seen breaks from the clinch using leverage but that is entirly different and not a static move but one done in motion designed to break a grip/control position and allow you to regrip or escape

[Dragonzbane76]

True... true....

So do you reject the notion of arm locks in Muay Thai? Their are a few standing arm bar/arm lock positions that come up pretty regularly in full rules MT.

I've never ever seen an arm bar in a Muay thai fight. I'm pretty sure the rules state there is no joint locks in the fights.

As for there not being in the entirity of the muay thai spectrum I would be willing to state that yes there probably is some sort of locks in the earlier 8 limb animal oriented style.

But as for the muay thai we see in thailand I've never seen any or in any other portion of the sport (dutch/international rule sets).

[goju]

I find it odd that someone would talk about the effectivness chinese locking methods when all they have studied is korean and japanese arts and have never atually competed in grappling or MMA

I have studied chinese locking systems under a few different teachers and also competed in grappling....my expereince is the same as dales, under stressful conditions they do not work, now perhaps when you either study a chinese system and then go onto fight in the cage/ring or do a graapling comp and pull off these techniques then perhaps you too can talk about their effectiveness?

wow i find it odd thats someone who claims to have studied tradtional martial arts isnt intelligent enough to realize chinese locking methods spread to the koreans and okinawans ( i know okinawan goju not japanese goju btw)

perhaps you dotn realize that white crane(wich has its own huge catalog of locks) along with five ancestor fist influcned goju?

or you dotn realize theres okinawan wrestling in it as well


well good for you thats YOUR exeperince how do you explain the duke roufus vid where a fight was won with a chin na lock in place?

as ive said ive seen that lock before

ive learned it myself in goju and ive seen it in ther arts such as in yang jwing mings whiite crane system

[goju]

Nobody is disputing his skill as a fighter. What we are explaining to you is the fact that the technique he is showing is not a finishing move. It is designed to take away the opponent's ability to control you from the plumb. The fact that you don't see this points to the probability that you have not actually competed in this environment.

Notice how Rufus never says there is a finishing arm bar there. Like most theoretical non-fighters, you are "extrapolating" based on what you think could happen, rather than basing your conclusions on what actually does happen.

not all chin na has to be used as finish move the loch can be used to set up a strike

[goju]

The fact that you think that tech is effective as a lock pretty much cements your level of cluelessness.

does the term broken record mean anything to you?

[goju]

Chin na is grappling. What works or doesn't work in grappling doesn't depend on what style you've studied. You don't need to study karate to recognize that the reverse punch isn't all that.

What is simply f##cking amazing to me is that I keep telling you and others that what you need to do -- before you reach your conclusions -- is to go train with some very good people, like some good MMA people or BJJ people and to see for yourself. Just because something has been taught a long time or is tradtitional or comes from China or whatever doesn't make it good. What makes it good is that it works consistently and against good people.

BTW, if you set aside your dislike for Dale and asked yourself, if you were going to to train at a good MMA/BJJ school -- I know you never will, but consider this hypothetically -- what is it you'd look for? Perhaps a BJJ BB with extensive competition experience? Someone who has also well-trained in stand-up? Someone who has fought both MMA and bareknuckle? Maybe even someone with a great deal of full-contact stickfighting? And what if this guy also knew WCK? What else could you ask for?

actually this just proves what a goof ball you are and now with your reverse punch comment you have shown youre clueless about krate as well

how many other styles do you plan to show youre ignorance of? lol lets make a list

yes you need to study an art before you talk about arguing agianst this is just plain dumb

if a person who has no clue about stand up grappling and has knowledge of the ground soley then their opinion on stand up is pointless and vice versa

and this is the most important thing no one here is ASKING you or dale for your so called advice

i really dont want advice from some guy who admits he isnt that good and some delusional anti tma old man who think hesbig sh!t because hes had a few fights along time ago


i know this may be hard for you to understand but im kooky that way

i dont dislike anyone here i actually find people like you and dale amusing


all i want is a gym with good hard training i really dont care about anything else but that

by the way since youre talking about good hard trianing what was the name of these team of guys you claim to work with? ive asked you how many times about them and asked you if any of them were in colorado at all and thus far you keep avoiding answering my question

[m1k3]

if a person who has no clue about stand up grappling and has knowledge of the ground soley then their opinion on stand up is pointless and vice versa

This comment speaks tons about your grappling experience. BJJ is not limited to ground grappling and has a strong standing grappling component that comes from Judo and wrestling. If you want to finish someone on the ground you'd better have a way to get them there.

Just remember, stupidity is a condition, ignorance is a choice.

[goju]

This comment speaks tons about your grappling experience. BJJ is not limited to ground grappling and has a strong standing grappling component that comes from Judo and wrestling. If you want to finish someone on the ground you'd better have a way to get them there.

Just remember, stupidity is a condition, ignorance is a choice.

funny because there was a article in this magazine entitled bjj vs shai jiao i believe and the instructor who teaches bjj and chinese wrestling inchina noted bjjs weakness was its stand up and he was taught directly under one of gracies

but what does he know right

[m1k3]

It depends on where your learning your BJJ I guess. While we spent a lot more time on ground work we do train single and double leg takedowns, clinch fighting, pummeling and even some basic judo throws. A couple of the students were college level wrestlers and there was a bunch of people with high school wrestling experience (including myself).

I guess thats the difference between experience and reading what someone else says. I won't comment on GOJU because I don't know anything about it. Maybe you should apply the same logic to BJJ?