Wing Chun "defeats" MMA

[m1k3]

These are the kinds of unsubstantiated statements that make me wonder about your understanding of combat. MANY TMAs were used in warfare/combat throughout history. I'll presume that you'd consider a Samurai swordsman to be an MMA fighter.
MMA/gage fighting is one of the best way to test you skills but there are rules. MMA fighters are not invincible in the streets. Especially against a boot party.

Sorry Phil but I have to disagree with you on some of this. TMA's are traditionally trained as dueling arts, one on one, two on one etc. Military combat training includes this but moves well beyond it with unit tactics and fighting as part of a group. Even back in the sword and armor days the armies that won weren't just warriors they were solders (or in our case Marines! Oohrah!) and fought using shield walls, coordinated movement, integration of cavalry and ground troops with your long/cross bow units and so forth. Your dueling type skills did not come into play unless the sh1t hit the fan and you ended up in a melee.

This is why all the bs about H2H training in the military isn't really that important. Your fighter trained in a military environment will have more skills that cross over into a dueling environment than the duelist will have that cross over into a military environment.

The military style of training contains some dueling type training but it is not the high priority, dueling style training doesn't contain any of the military unit style training.

[Tringsh]

Sorry Phil but I have to disagree with you on some of this. TMA's are traditionally trained as dueling arts, one on one, two on one etc. Military combat training includes this but moves well beyond it with unit tactics and fighting as part of a group. Even back in the sword and armor days the armies that won weren't just warriors they were solders (or in our case Marines! Oohrah!) and fought using shield walls, coordinated movement, integration of cavalry and ground troops with your long/cross bow units and so forth. Your dueling type skills did not come into play unless the sh1t hit the fan and you ended up in a melee.

This is why all the bs about H2H training in the military isn't really that important. Your fighter trained in a military environment will have more skills that cross over into a dueling environment than the duelist will have that cross over into a military environment.

The military style of training contains some dueling type training but it is not the high priority, dueling style training doesn't contain any of the military unit style training.

I'm sorry but I don't think you explained that terribly well. Of course an army needs to be well drilled and work in units to achieve success but the way you explain it makes it sound like soldiers wouldn't fight as individuals while still within a unit...

Before firearms came into play units of soldiers would clash on the battlefield and it would be very much down to how well trained a combatant was. Do you think a generals personal guard would be made of local militia?

I also disagree with your point 'Your fighter trained in a military environment will have more skills that cross over into a dueling environment than the duelist will have that cross over into a military environment.' That’s a real generalisation and someone’s basic military training may not stand up against someone that has been training in solely hand to hand combat for the same period of time.

[monji112000]

The army will only teach you "real" fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYI9H...9278&kw=karate

http://www.youtube.com/user/worldkun.../4/9MhbE-uFk6w

http://www.youtube.com/user/worldkun.../5/qfer8D7XsPY

http://www.youtube.com/user/worldkun.../0/EgE5WDiG2AM

[m1k3]

I'm sorry but I don't think you explained that terribly well. Of course an army needs to be well drilled and work in units to achieve success but the way you explain it makes it sound like soldiers wouldn't fight as individuals while still within a unit...

Ok, I'm talking about the professional armies of their time, not militias. Militias fought primarily in a melee or a bunch of individual fights when two units clashed together. Professional armies would fight as units, usually behind a shield wall or in a phalanx with each solder having resposibilites for how he fought in the unit and supporting each each as a cohesive unit. Professional armies ate militias for lunch even when greatly out numbered.

Before firearms came into play units of soldiers would clash on the battlefield and it would be very much down to how well trained a combatant was. Do you think a generals personal guard would be made of local militia?

I also disagree with your point 'Your fighter trained in a military environment will have more skills that cross over into a dueling environment than the duelist will have that cross over into a military environment.' That’s a real generalisation and someone’s basic military training may not stand up against someone that has been training in solely hand to hand combat for the same period of time.

In a one on one fight the dualist has the advantage. The solder has some skills that he would bring to that kind of fight but not at the level of the dualist.

The dualist would have almost no skills that would transfer to a unit in a professional army and would probably just get in the way, unless it became a melee situation.

They are two totally different styles of fighting with few cross over skills.

Which is why the traditional arts are battlefield tested is not a valid argument unless it was an art designed and trained for the military. English and Japanese bow training for example.

[m1k3]

The army will only teach you "real" fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYI9H...9278&kw=karate

http://www.youtube.com/user/worldkun.../4/9MhbE-uFk6w

http://www.youtube.com/user/worldkun.../5/qfer8D7XsPY

http://www.youtube.com/user/worldkun.../0/EgE5WDiG2AM

LOL, WTF was that???

[monji112000]

LOL, WTF was that???

That was real, deadly, not sport fighting thats taught to the worlds most advanced army. I know of also another style thats tought to Navy Seals, but you have to sign papers and have clearance to know the name or the teacher. I'm not playing you do so I can't say. really.

People have dreams of what is taught to armies today or back in the day .. no super secret style, or amazing fighting arts.

People who learn to fight in armies learn how to be tough, get in shape, and do basic strikes, chokes ect..

the first two are the most important.. everyone knows roughly how to punch people. You hit them hard, over and over again.



I didn't make this up or come up with these ideas.. they were told to me by Marines, navy seals, and army rangers currently fighting for our freedom. The idea is simple...
we have technology do a large amount of fight. We need soldiers who are in amazing shape, and very strong. Its impossible to train them to be amazing fighters.. so if they are mentally and physically tough.. thats more than enough.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Sorry Phil but I have to disagree with you on some of this. TMA's are traditionally trained as dueling arts, one on one, two on one etc. Military combat training includes this but moves well beyond it with unit tactics and fighting as part of a group. Even back in the sword and armor days the armies that won weren't just warriors they were solders (or in our case Marines! Oohrah!) and fought using shield walls, coordinated movement, integration of cavalry and ground troops with your long/cross bow units and so forth. Your dueling type skills did not come into play unless the sh1t hit the fan and you ended up in a melee.

This is why all the bs about H2H training in the military isn't really that important. Your fighter trained in a military environment will have more skills that cross over into a dueling environment than the duelist will have that cross over into a military environment.

The military style of training contains some dueling type training but it is not the high priority, dueling style training doesn't contain any of the military unit style training.

What you are saying just isn't correct. Most of the japanese arts are derived from samurais who were definitely solders. Many of the long fist arts are derived from sword tactics which is why they seem sill when doing the moments empty hand.

If you train with a lot of the old masters they still pass on the military tactics. You could make the case that ancient ground grappling arts like Greco Roman Wrestling are dueling arts, but it is hard to make the case that most other arts had their origins in dueling although some have evolved into dueling arts.

[Frost]

That was real, deadly, not sport fighting thats taught to the worlds most advanced army. I know of also another style thats tought to Navy Seals, but you have to sign papers and have clearance to know the name or the teacher. I'm not playing you do so I can't say. really.

People have dreams of what is taught to armies today or back in the day .. no super secret style, or amazing fighting arts.

People who learn to fight in armies learn how to be tough, get in shape, and do basic strikes, chokes ect..

the first two are the most important.. everyone knows roughly how to punch people. You hit them hard, over and over again.



I didn't make this up or come up with these ideas.. they were told to me by Marines, navy seals, and army rangers currently fighting for our freedom. The idea is simple...
we have technology do a large amount of fight. We need soldiers who are in amazing shape, and very strong. Its impossible to train them to be amazing fighters.. so if they are mentally and physically tough.. thats more than enough.

which goes back to a point made on a thread in the main forum, fitness inbuild toughness, a strong mentality and the willingness to do bodily harm are the most important things in a confrontation

[Tringsh]

I see what your saying m1k3 and I don't disagree that units would work together to great effect however they would also break away from the sheild wall to fight.

[Dragonzbane76]

or the chain punch will finish anything and everything.

[m1k3]

That was real, deadly, not sport fighting thats taught to the worlds most advanced army. I know of also another style thats tought to Navy Seals, but you have to sign papers and have clearance to know the name or the teacher. I'm not playing you do so I can't say. really.

People have dreams of what is taught to armies today or back in the day .. no super secret style, or amazing fighting arts.

People who learn to fight in armies learn how to be tough, get in shape, and do basic strikes, chokes ect..

the first two are the most important.. everyone knows roughly how to punch people. You hit them hard, over and over again.



I didn't make this up or come up with these ideas.. they were told to me by Marines, navy seals, and army rangers currently fighting for our freedom. The idea is simple...
we have technology do a large amount of fight. We need soldiers who are in amazing shape, and very strong. Its impossible to train them to be amazing fighters.. so if they are mentally and physically tough.. thats more than enough.

Sorry dude but I am a former Marine and so is Phil. I never saw anything like that when I was in and I'll bet Phil didn't either.

I agree with your mentally and physically tough comment though, add a lot of aggression with some basic training to that and you have one tuff hombre.

The thing is the military doesn't focus much on hand to hand. The programs are kind of laid out but its up to the individual to pursue them. There is too much other stuff that is too important that gets a higher priority in the training schedule.

I will admit you get a fair amount in boot/basic but to a large degree that is to build toughness and aggression and the warrior mentality, not great hand to hand skills.

I see what your saying m1k3 and I don't disagree that units would work together to great effect however they would also break away from the sheild wall to fight.

Not if you're well trained. You are actually safer fighting as part of the unit. Doesn't matter if the guy banging on your shield is a great swordsman if your buddies spear is poking him in the guts or slashing him across the shins under your shield.

The individual skills only came into play if the shield wall is flanked or breaks.

[SAAMAG]

For those who believe in the street-vs-sport ("real fighting") notion:

Back to Bagua (Moashan) vs. muay thai (Nakmeezy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ls7SAbN24

That was sport, right? And Moashan sucked. Both in skill and in conditioning, right.

Now listen to what Moashan says, particularly at 30 s in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bxOTmOZELA

"Fighting for the ring is a specialty . . . but training for health and self defense, and training for the ring are two different things."

Then again at 1:07

"I had been training to fight light . . . this is a street-thing, a complete street thing."

And ESPECIALLY at 4:35

"For getting in the ring you have to train . . . for life and death purposes, that's something different . . . ."

Now go back and watch his PERFORMANCE, how he had no power, no skill, no technique, nothing he did really worked.

Now, let's take him from the ring and put him on the street -- will he now have power, now have skill, have technique, be able to make everything work? No. He'll suck just as badly. Even if it were life-and-death.

Yet, he thinks he should train really hard for the ring, but NOT for life-and-death!

Skill works. Conditioning works. Skill and conditioning come from good, solid training. That skill and conditioning can be used anywhere -- if you have it. If you don't, then you can't use it, whether the ring or street or life-and-death. This is what Moashan and the street-sport guys don't grasp -- it's not about street-vs-sport or "real fighting", that's a red-herring. It is about skill and conditioning.

Very much correct.

[Dragonzbane76]

Skill works. Conditioning works. Skill and conditioning come from good, solid training. That skill and conditioning can be used anywhere -- if you have it. If you don't, then you can't use it, whether the ring or street or life-and-death. This is what Moashan and the street-sport guys don't grasp -- it's not about street-vs-sport or "real fighting", that's a red-herring. It is about skill and conditioning.

i agree with this as well.

[SAAMAG]

I have a question regarding people saying that this or that can't be used in "sport fighting" or those that make the distinction that the skills aren't transferable....

Let's assume you have 4 oz gloves on and a mouthpiece and the rules only state that you can't hit the eyes, the spine, or the balls.

What can't you do that is wing chun?

[m1k3]

I have a question regarding people saying that this or that can't be used in "sport fighting" or those that make the distinction that the skills aren't transferable....

Let's assume you have 4 oz gloves on and a mouthpiece and the rules only state that you can't hit the eyes, the spine, or the balls.

What can't you do that is wing chun?

Hit the eyes, the spine, or the balls. Duh.

Actually that's one of the arguments that drives me nuts. You don't have the skills to punch someone in the face but you're going to be able to poke him in the eye or crush his trachea????