you and your horse stance

[jmd161]

Like dis...

Hmmm,

I guess most would say the same about a horse stance but, that stance is not very practical IMO. There are a few occasions while executing a technique to where dropping into horse stance is practical. You don't have a solid foundation/base in that stance and can be off balanced easily among other things.

[Oso]

LMAO, i've been gone from this forum for two years, and when I come back, it's just like old times...we are even still having the same debates!

well, 'we' are not...

stupid, stupid, stupid...what stance training is 'today' is a basic bodyweight exercise for the slabs that come in off the street. it will build their strength and endurance and i suppose can be a test of 'dedication' if nothing else. i suppose, most probably, it was the same 'way back when' when men were men and chinese men were kinda small and weak (generally speaking of course)


...i guess 'we' are...

[jdhowland]

some horse stances have you point your toes out

True. But that's shiko dachi, isn't it? From sumo. I've never seen it in Chinese arts. Some northern styles do that to a lesser degree.

I only wished to point out that ma bu can be used in ways which offer more development than the ability to hold the thighs parallel to the floor. I believe it strengthens connective tissues. I'm 56 years old and I still train with it even though it is not greatly emphasized in my system. We use high, narrow stances for training technique. But I think there's something to be gained from the standard basics, such as learning how to make the bones and connective tissues support your mass without excessive strain on the ligaments. Ma bu helps to train correct position of the knees and ankles.

[YouKnowWho]

some horse stances have you point your toes out

I have seen a CMA demo in Ohio. The teacher had 20 students on the stage. Each student all had different horse stance. Some were narrow, some were wide, some were parallel, some pointed in, and some pointed out. Are they all correct?

If you touch your feet together, your balance is weak. When you move your feet apart, your balance will get better. When you have reached to a point that if you keep moving your feet apart, your balance will get worse.

If you have your toes all point inward, you will have poor balance. When your toes move outward, your balance will get better. When you have reached a point that if you keep moving your toe outward, your balance will get worse.

It's like the normal distribution (bell curve). There is only one highest point. In other words, there is only one horse stance that will give you the maximum balance.

- A narrow horse stance is weak to resist a foot sweep from outside in.
- A wide horse stance is weak to resist a spring from inside out.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4995/bellcurve.gif

[Drake]

Uh...you don't hold a stance during a fight... all stances are impractical by themselves...

The benfit comes from the force generated from the transition...not standing there like a ******* in the say ping ma saying "HEEEET MEEEEE!!!"

[jmd161]

Uh...you don't hold a stance during a fight... all stances are impractical by themselves...

The benfit comes from the force generated from the transition...not standing there like a ******* in the say ping ma saying "HEEEET MEEEEE!!!"

Agreed!

But, you wouldn't want to transition into that stance as it is depicted at any point IMO. That stance whether transitioning or otherwise has a very poor base.

[SevenStar]

Hmmm,

I guess most would say the same about a horse stance but, that stance is not very practical IMO. There are a few occasions while executing a technique to where dropping into horse stance is practical. You don't have a solid foundation/base in that stance and can be off balanced easily among other things.

this is another transitional stance a grappler uses all the time. many turning hip throws like harai goshi will have you in that position for a split second as you fit in and execute the throw.

[jmd161]

this is another transitional stance a grappler uses all the time. many turning hip throws like harai goshi will have you in that position for a split second as you fit in and execute the throw.

Well, I guess I should have stated for the strike he's attempting in the picture... again IMO.

[Drake]

It's actually a very stable stance, btw, when done correctly. But all stances are transitional, flowing from one to the other. If the lau ma wasn't stable, that means it would be a vulnerable opening. This stance has been used for centuries, and is one of the basic foundational stances of CLF. It works.

[jmd161]

It's actually a very stable stance, btw, when done correctly. But all stances are transitional, flowing from one to the other. If the lau ma wasn't stable, that means it would be a vulnerable opening. This stance has been used for centuries, and is one of the basic foundational stances of CLF. It works.

I'm aware it's in CLF and we actually have a similar technique within Black Tiger... I'm basing my opinion on the actual picture. While I agree it can be used I don't feel the way it's depicted in the pic is very practical. I feel you would only sink that deep for forms or show never in actual fighting. If used in a fight it would be higher IMO.

I still don't feel it's one of the better techniques to use but, all techniques have their place.

Again, this is my own opinion.

[Drake]

I'm aware it's in CLF and we actually have a similar technique within Black Tiger... I'm basing my opinion on the actual picture. While I agree it can be used I don't feel the way it's depicted in the pic is very practical. I feel you would only sink that deep for forms or show never in actual fighting. If used in a fight it would be higher IMO.

I still don't feel it's one of the better techniques to use but, all techniques have their place.

Again, this is my own opinion.

Absolutely. And you'll see different applications of stances based on what is being instructed. For training, most of the stances will be deep and very exaggerrated. However, for fighting purposes, you'll notice that you'll be taught to use a much higher, less intensive stance, as you'll only be there for a brief moment.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Horse stances--excellent for balance training. You show me a good horse stance, and I'll show you someone who can kick hard (Side kick/thrust kick/front kick [not neccessarily roundhouse, though]) with a strong root. The trick is in the hip rotation and the leg planted on the ground. For that, you don't need a good horse stance, not necessarily, but it sure is a good training tool. Don't know a better one.

[taai gihk yahn]

Horse stances--excellent for balance training.

not even close! to train balance, which is a reactive system, you need to do things like standing on one leg, on an unstable surface, or with eyes closed or some combination of these, and also add in someone trying to push you over; horse training does not train balance, because the three systems that mediate balance, specifically muscle stretch receptors, the visual system and the vestibular system, are all velocity dependent - if you train statically, you will not improve their function in the least; in fact, horse training would technically be antithetical to developing good balance, because it is done with a wide base of support, which is what the body uses when it can't rely on the above three mentioned systems to do their job properly - it trades mobility for stability; and horse training is a stable practice that will make you good at one thing: standing in horse stance;

You show me a good horse stance, and I'll show you someone who can kick hard (Side kick/thrust kick/front kick [not neccessarily roundhouse, though]) with a strong root.

LOL - ridiculous: horse training is primarily isometric, slow-twitch muscle use; kicking hard is concentric, fast twitch muscle fiber use; opposite ends of the spectrum;

The trick is in the hip rotation and the leg planted on the ground. For that, you don't need a good horse stance, not necessarily, but it sure is a good training tool.

I am sure that at one point this sentence resembled a reasonable statement in English, until you got your hands on it, that is

Don't know a better one.

well, given the style that you practice, that's no surprise;

here's a little secret: if you want to get good at kicking, practice kicking; that's it; practice it against a bag too, if you actually want to develop power; practice it against moving targets if you want to improve accuracy; practice it against unpredictable targets if you want to build reaction time; practice it against someone trying not to get hit to work all three;

[Drake]

This is a pretty elementary discussion... let's ramp it up a bit.

What do you all think of the benefit of the shifting effect during transitions? For example, moving from a lau ma to a say ping ma, we often see a bit of a slide with the feet (depending on the surface, naturally). I know I do it, and I've always attributed it to the power generated during the transition.

Also... any thoughts of the switch from a nau ma (retreating) to ding ji ma (bow and arrow) and the energy generated into a poon kiu/sau choi?

[jmd161]

This is a pretty elementary discussion... let's ramp it up a bit.

What do you all think of the benefit of the shifting effect during transitions? For example, moving from a lau ma to a say ping ma, we often see a bit of a slide with the feet (depending on the surface, naturally). I know I do it, and I've always attributed it to the power generated during the transition.

Also... any thoughts of the switch from a nau ma (retreating) to ding ji ma (bow and arrow) and the energy generated into a poon kiu/sau choi?

With our horse training and stance training in general I see a lot of benefits because we do a lot of leg fighting... When we get in close we use our legs a lot for sliding or shifting into leg sweeps, trips take downs, and locks. So for us having a solid foundation is very important because we're fighting with our legs as we strike in close... The hands hide or distract from what we're doing with our legs at all times.

The transition is very important to the effectiveness of most techniques!