Songshan Shaolin and Shorin Ryu

[Leto]

Has anyone practiced both traditional shaolin forms (hong quan, taizu chang quan, qi xing and chang hu xin yi men, tong bei, etc) and shorin ryu karate, specifically the kata passai, chinto, kusanku, wanshu, wankan?
After being exposed to the traditional shaolin forms and having practiced shorin ryu for a long time, I feel like there is a connection there. There is very little verified historical information about the sources or inspirations for the shorin ryu kata, only that most of them were based on the teachings of various Chinese martial artists who visited Okinawa in the 17th and 18th centuries.
Anyone who has experience with both shaolin forms and the kata I mentioned, what do you think? I can give specific examples of where I feel the equivalent movements are, but has anyone else noticed the similarities?

[David Jamieson]

I was a karateka and a student of Isshinryu.
It had within it several shorin kata.

shorin is shaolin

shorin ji kempo though is a different thing from shorin proper.

yes, there are similarities. In japan, it is tiger/crane similarities that are found in the Okinawan styles which of course are closer to their Chinese progenitors.

[bawang]

i think karate definitely has chinese roots but not shaolin roots. you cant just say because they have 1 or 2 techniques you can see in a shaolin form then they must be from shaolin. all chinese martial arts share techniques. different styles even share same forms.

[David Jamieson]

i think karate definitely has chinese roots but not shaolin roots. you cant just say because they have 1 or 2 techniques you can see in a shaolin form then they must be from shaolin. all chinese martial arts share techniques. different styles even share same forms.

Shorin = Shaolin.


here's the kanji:

Yes, Chinese martial arts share techniques, but a great deal of what we have left in all those shared techniques is quite often derived from those arts that were either created at or preserved by the Shaolin over the centuries.

However, and to be totally fair about it:

In 1933, Chosin Chibana chose to call his style Shorin-ryu in honor of the Chinese Shaolin roots, and to differentiate it from others styles that were being modified from the original teachings of Anko Itosu

[shen ku]

i know of a master of that style that showed be some history of the style and had names of monks from the southern temple who had taught them white crane... it was very interesting.

[pazman]

Proper karate is Southern Chinese gongfu with Okinawan special sauce.

I don't think there is a connection to Shaolin, though. From karate, I've learned sanchin and bassai dai, and I don't see similarity between those and the taolu I've learned from the Shaolin styles.

Leto, what techniques in particular do you feel are the same?

[Leto]

The common perception is that karate is all from southern gong fu, but there is really very little evidence to support that. Most of the published research only mentions the naha/ goju ryu kata, however, which are much younger with clear connection to southern styles like white crane (sanchin/sanzhan is the most obvious one). The shuri/shorin ryu kata are older and don't have such clear connections. Little is known for sure about them.
There is one circumstantial piece of evidence which suggests that it's possible for northern styles to have been exposed to Okinawa, including shaolin longfist. Throught the Ming and much of the Qing dynasties, the imperial court in Beijing sent an envoy with a huge retinue of retainers and merchants in order to receive the emperor's tribute from Okinawa, at least once during the reign of each emperor. They would stay for several months at a time. In addition, it was known that teachers of Chinese language and customs were employed to instruct the Okinawan nobility (who lived in Shuri with the king). Shuri and the nearby village of Tomari are where the kata of shorin ryu were practiced. Two of the kata are named after men who were attaches of the Chinese envoy and taught martial arts during their stay, kusanku and wanshu. Who would have had the opprtunity to learn from people like that? Probably the men of the king's court and family, his warriors and body guards (peichurin).

I don't believe that any of the shorin ryu kata are complete Chinese forms, it's obvious that they aren't. But throughout there are movements which could be corrupted versions of techniques found in many traditional shaolin forms. The stances have changed in most cases, been simplified to either a horse, forward bow, or cat stance rather than the varied shaolin stances, and the flow has usually changed or been lost. I think that shorin ryu kata have a blend of techniques from different Chinese sources, along with the Okinawan "sauce". But I think there's a case for at least on of those sources being northern shaolin.

The sequence in passai which made me first say "hmmm" was following the "kamae" posture, you step forward with the right foot into a horse stance and the right arm swings around to perform an inside middle block in front of the body before swinging down to the side for an "augmented" lower block where the left fist ends up alongside the right forearm. This is followed by turning to the left, both hands move to the left hip as you shift into a left forward stance, then straight punch with the left as the right goes to chamber.

After learning xiao hong quan, the feeling of this sequence performed slowly and broken down immediately reminded me of passai,especially since it is performed on the same side and everything.

Right Cloud Peak – Zuo You Yun Ding
Seven Star – Qi Xing,
Single Whip – Dan Bian

The cloud peak doesn't block around the head, but it does begin from behind the head in the kamae posture, then swings in front.
the seven star stance has been lost to horse stance, but the pressing is still there, though it has been dropped to a low position instead of chest height.
and the single whip has changed with the rear hand chambered instead of swinging behind the body.
In Xiao Hong Quan the single whip is in horse stance, but in da hong quan it is forward bow stance, as well as in chang hu xin yi men quan.

you can see the sequence I'm talking about pretty clearly in this video from 0:50 - 0:53
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap5JRbz5Hew

xiao hong quan from 0:20 to 0:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIszQnnvo4I

da hong quan 0:16 to 0:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1h8pyH7Q3Y

There are more techniques and postures which suggest norther shaolin influence, in other kata. There's more than one or two techniques, but not in the same sequence as found in any particular shaolin form that is still known (at least not that I've seen).

[LFJ]

I think you're straining pretty hard to find connection between these sequences.

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd55Fg0Ihfk
goju ryu without the gi

fujian and zhejiang boxing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LmzEECPkrI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijp64gfvvdQ

[mig]

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1078722]Shorin = Shaolin.


here's the kanji:

The kanji (hanzi) says shaolin guan : shaolin hall

[LFJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd55Fg0Ihfk
goju ryu without the gi

fujian and zhejiang boxing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LmzEECPkrI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijp64gfvvdQ

That last video is crazy! The guy at :41 says "SATANIC!", the devil screams out of him, then he repeats shouts of "SATAN!" throughout, such as at :52.

[RenDaHai]

@ Leto

Actually on the first video not 50-53 but the very first movement in the form, the back fist (hands close together) followed by the opening palms. This is an incarnation of 7 stars - dan bian.

You have touched upon something. The sequence you mention Shuang Yun Ding (double clouds cover the peak) shang bu qi xing (foreward press 7 stars) and Ma bu Dan Bian (the single whip) is one of the most common and important sequences in all chinese wushu and is repeated in the same order in many many styles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkg-T...eature=related

Chen Taiji, 48-1:03 is the same Qixing to dan bian. It is the most repeated movement in Taiji. The 7 stars is done in ding bu, pushing foreward, except the hands do not touch, never the less the application is largely identical. Dan bian is identical, except that instead of fists it uses the two opposing hooks. In many versions the hands will be held up by the ears before qixing is initiated, representing the 'Shuang Yun Ding'.


It is certainly the most common sequence in shaolin, in if you simply add 2 other moves you have the whole basic of the hong quan system. The other moves being Xiexing (a variation of danbian but accross the body not along) and Shu shen (shrinking the body, the standard defence when one does not have contact).


The Yun Ding (Clouds covering the peak, hands cover face) and Wu hua (dancing flowers) form a complete system of shou fa, hand to hand guarding skills. Qi xing covers an entire system of the hands working together as one arm as opposed to two seperate arms. Dan bian and xie xing collectively form an entire system of continuos elbow strikes pivoting from the opponants body until at a necessary moment they whip outwards to form the stance.... a whole system of striking. Shu shen is a form unto itself teaching the principles of evasion and empty legs for kicking.

[Leto]

I think you're straining pretty hard to find connection between these sequences.

Just looking at them on video I can see how you'd say that, but actually practicing them and knowing them both, it's more apparent. I wasn't looking to connect them, I just felt it one day. I had just learned xiao hong quan, and I was practicing passai, and went "hey!".

RenDaHai: Oh yes! I know the four actions and dan bian sequence well from Yang taijiquan, but since taijiquan is derived from shaolin, I didn't think to mention it.
Thank you for the additional details. With my limited exposure to traditional shaolin, I'm sure there is a lot I haven't noticed yet that an expert would see. I'm surprised that, being called "shaolin" karate, no one seems to have published any research or done any investigation into traditional shaolin martial arts and how they might be connected. Everyone seems to have gotten hung up on the Bubishi and Fujian white crane as the only historical connection to a Chinese style for all of Okinawa.

[sha0lin1]

that last video is crazy! The guy at :41 says "satanic!", the devil screams out of him, then he repeats shouts of "satan!" throughout, such as at :52.

lmfao!!!!!