Grab

[YouKnowWho]

In both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand" training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm435...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h5_U...eature=related

what if your opponet grabs on your

- wrist,
- above elbow,
- below elbow,
- bicep, or
- hook under/over your shoulder?

Even if you may not use those moves, you can't prevent your opponent from using those moves on you. Your need to train how to defend against those attacks.

Are those training missing in both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand"? Why?

[Dragonzbane76]

haha good question. forgot the plum as well. I'm sure you're going to get the usual it's just for training reply.

realistic training lacks in many places...

[LivingArt]

My response would be root self, pull them forward to offset balance with simultaneous knife strike to throat, followed by chain punches/deflecting whatever their other hand is doing. A possible sweep at their leading leg or some heel strikes to upper leg/abdomen area.

[SPJ]

point line then circle

1 points, wrist, elbow, shoulder

2. lines: ---

3 circles: around wrist, elbow, shoulder

once done with fixed steps

we do moving steps.

[GETHIN]

In Yongchun Crane we are told if your wrist is grabbed - chop the opponents wrist hard with your free hand, but I think I would resort to some Chin na.
If the grab is made above the elbow I would hope to be in a position to use that arm to pivot free, or if very close use the elbow to strike, or again - Chin na.

[Subitai]

In both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand" training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm435...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h5_U...eature=related

what if your opponet grabs on your

- wrist,
- above elbow,
- below elbow,
- bicep, or
- hook under/over your shoulder?

Even if you may not use those moves, you can't prevent your opponent from using those moves on you. Your need to train how to defend against those attacks.

Are those training missing in both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand"? Why?

Shhhh, don't tell anyone to start workin' on that!!!

Man this is what my school focuses on allot, "Hand never comes back empty". Grab and get some kinda control...
Be it hand control or just listening to some higher gates on the arm (all the way towards his center) is where the real fighting ends up.

Not slap happy slappity slappity. Anyway, Grab can be akin to "Pluck"....

Grabbing is good but can be bad if your mind is focused TOO long in one place. That's why they have that saying "he who holds, is also held by himself"

Most grapplers love when you hold them...then they know exactly where your hands are.

There are many kinds of grab on the arm for example: Some with the opposing thumb and others that only use Pinky, ring and middle finger...less so with the index finger. Depends on the wrist and angle...certain fingers get stronger or weaker structurally as you do different holds. Some are w/o the thumb and its more of a squeeze against your palm (ergo your release is quicker)

"O"

[YouKnowWho]

It will be your advantage if you are a grappler and force a striker to play your grappling game.

[MightyB]

I don't worry about grabs unless the guy's got total wrist control.

[MightyB]

The problem with Tai Chi push hands theory and training is they stop half-way. If they followed it through to completion, it'd look more like this.

If somebody did that to a Tai Chi guy, they'd be F*(%ed.

[Lee Chiang Po]

When someone grabs you, it is not usually a random act in the fight. He probably has a reason for grabbing you. Not just to control you, but to simply control you while he does his thing to you. If grabbed, you usually have a split second to respond. I know that when I grab someone, they only have a split second to respond, and then usually that is not going to be enough. In some systems this is a common issue that is trained against. Believe it or not, it does happen quite a bit in a close encounter of the worst kind.

[YouKnowWho]

Your "grabbing" along with "pulling" can help you to achieve the following goals:

- put your opponent in defense mode so he won't think about attacking you for 1/4 second..
- start fight close to your opponent instead of close to you.
- disable your opponent's striking ability ASAP.
- put your opponent's arms in a temporay place so it won't be in you moving path.
- prevent your opponent from moving back.
- pull yourself into your opponent (or pull your opponent into you).
- shake your opponent to force him to make certain commitment.
- create a head on collusion.
- give before take.

[wiz cool c]

The first trip i took to china,with a group of about ten, all internal art student here to study bagua and tai chi. at the time i was really into push hands comps,so i was excited to have some like minded people around me . to my surprise nobody wanted to push, but i eventually made my way through the group, well there was this one guy real dushbag of a *****,who took it upon him self to act like an assistant instructor. well he seemed to avoid pushing with me till one day we were waiting out side the training hall for the key to come,when i asked if anyone want to practice push, so this ***** takes this as a challenge and says ok i will push.


So we get ready to push and first thing he does is grab my winter coat,[it was beijing in the winter and we are outside] and tries to pull me face first into the floor. i just shuffled forward and rooted,it had no affect. so he tried it again,i did the same shuffle and root,he could break my balance,the he just all out starts trying to wrestle me we wind up backs against a fence. ok through all this i still didn't grab him back and wanted to stick to the no grabbing rule. so ok, now i feel it's my turn. so we square off again and begin. i coil my arms inside of his so as i have a superior clinch but without grabbing,[something seen in chen style pushing often].once there i give a slight shoulder shove to upset his balance, then do a rear outside sweep. down he goes. from his back and me standing above him he tried some unsuccessful attempts to trip me.


At the wu tang school,[frank allen's school] in new york we used to do some fun variations with push hands. one time we did fixed step push hands with qi na allowed. my opponent was one of franks students,who also has a second degree black belt in aikido,and i have a black belt in japanese jujitsu, any way neither could obtain any locks in that session. another is each player has a wooden knife in the back of their pants and can grab it and try to cut at any time,the other must try to neutralize and defend.

[Ben Gash]

I use our sticky hands as a vehicle to teach all our Chin Na, clinch and Shuai Jiao work. At the end of the day it's a handfighting drill, what you do with it is up to you.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

In both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand" training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm435...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h5_U...eature=related

what if your opponet grabs on your

- wrist,
- above elbow,
- below elbow,
- bicep, or
- hook under/over your shoulder?

Even if you may not use those moves, you can't prevent your opponent from using those moves on you. Your need to train how to defend against those attacks.

Are those training missing in both "Taiji push hand" and "WC sticky hand"? Why?

Since I have zero training in either Taiji or WC, I will ask the question. Why can you not grab the wrist, elbow, bicep, under/over hook, or plum??

Considering these are an essential part of clinch and grappling it seems stupid to not train these. In our system we have Mantis sticky hand training but you most certainly can grab the wrist, elbow, and back of the neck, as this is the nature of Mantis, seize, lock, and destroy. The two clips shown above may be fine for "feeling" drills, but the reality is when a grappler shoots and locks most of that goes out the window and plum, hook, sinking, and rooting are what you can use effectively.

So back to my question, why in Taiji and WC can you not use those techniques discussed, does it take away from the supposed purity of the system??

[Ben Gash]

In pushing hands competitions, you can grab the arm but not the head. The video that he showed contains basic level sensitivity training drills, this is the actual pushing hands http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpY0s2ua9eo
I don't know what the hell was going on in that Wing Chun video, but again wrist and biceps grabs are pretty common.