Incorporating Ground Fighting in Shaolin

[Syn7]

The point is just this: if something is on video, anyone can make an assessment and comparison against something else, especially if they have experience and are familiar with it, but even if they are a non-martial artist. If something is not on video, and the person furthermore has 0 experience in the system from which it comes, I just have to wonder what they can base their comparison on to say it is not developed to the level of something else. Also, something not being common knowledge in the west doesn't make it a secret or even nifty.

No, they aren't special or nifty, that's my point. And there is a ton of shaolin on video.

You don't even fight, I'm not gonna waste anymore time trying to show you something that is so obvious that you are clearly missing.

[Syn7]

The information comes from yourself. I've seen you mention your Shaolin experience/instructor, unless you've had more recent exposure, and I've seen videos of you and your students. I'll leave it at that. Don't ask me to embarrass you here.

No, you should totally embarrass him.

I'm sure that will clear all this up and show us all how right you are.

[LFJ]

No, they aren't special or nifty, that's my point. And there is a ton of shaolin on video.

When was the opposite point made? All I've said is that it exists and has been well developed, but has a clear approach to practical self-defense which purposefully lacks offensive ground work which is deemed safe only in protected sport environments.

Some other folks wanted to make the comparison to BJJ and say it is better developed than Shaolin ditanggong. Seems like these are the folks claiming special and nifty moves.

There is a ton of Shaolin on video. There is also a ton of Shaolin not on video. Shaolin has some 1500 confirmed sets, the majority of which you will not find on youtube, much less application and ground skills.

So I don't know what point of reference people are using to make an assessment of how well developed Shaolin ditangong is in comparison to BJJ, having not even seen it.

You don't even fight, I'm not gonna waste anymore time trying to show you something that is so obvious that you are clearly missing.

Yeah, alright. I wish you safety in 2013!

[LFJ]

I'm sure that will clear all this up and show us all how right you are.

It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[pazman]

LFJ, I now understand what you were trying to say before. There are a lot of reasons to disagree with it, still, but we'll have to leave it for another time as it doesn't really fit in with this thread.

Shaolin has a lot of different skills and it would be impossible to learn them all to sufficient levels. I've met people who claim their art is "complete" and thus there is no need to crosstrain. I'm always skeptical of this kind of claim. Given the fact that a person really has to go out of their way to learn authentic Shaolin, finding a teacher who knows and instructs the Shaolin ditang skills would be an even greater challenge.

I think it's fair to say that Shaolin is a stand-up art...unless teachers are teaching the Shaolin ditang skills openly.

[Syn7]

If you wanna be well rounded, you can't study with the attitude of learning one thing in such depth. So if a guy trains only saber, for 20 years, if he gets in a saber fight, he will probably do pretty well. If he gets in a fist fight or a brawl, he'll prolly get hurt.

You have all heard the phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none." But thats been bastardized and reinterpreted from it's oringinal intention. The real quote is:

"Jack of all trades, master of none, often better than a master of one."


Internalize that.

[LFJ]

You can consider where the various Shaolin material came from. It was like the original cross training center of China. So Shaolin already follows that philosophy.

By the way, I never said a Shaolin practitioner couldn't or shouldn't cross train in something like BJJ, but that if one chose to it wouldn't be for a lack of something similar already in Shaolin.

In fact, people training at most Shaolin centers should be cross training if they are interested in developing themselves as fighters, or would probably be better off not doing Shaolin at all, and just go to an actual Sanda gym.

[Shaolin]

It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Yet you've been trying to discredit me the last few pages. You can go right ahead and "embarrass" me here online. I could care less. I went back through my posts and in all my posts I've only named 2 of all my coaches (yes, there are more). I also don't know what video's you've seen of me but there aren't any. I have only posted videos of my students. And where are you getting this idea I learned from VCD's? I'm confident my skills and pedigree are legitimate.

As far as the "topic at hand", I will openly admit that my Shaolin ditangquan is probably not at the level yours is. But your BJJ is no where near the level of mine. The difference between us is I have studied Shaolin ditangquan, you have not studied BJJ.

So going back to my earlier statement, where is your evidence that Shaolin ditang could not be nullified by BJJ? Have you ever sparred a BJJ player? Have you ever been underneath someone who knows how to keep you down? I have. And even though I'm not the Supreme Ultimate Grandmaster of Shaolin ditang I still have knowledge on the subject. And when I went to my first BJJ class I got owned, as does everyone else.

I understand what you are saying in that the Shaolin practitioners goal when on the ground is to get back to standing, but this is not the entire systems focus. BJJ's entire focus is to get you down, keep you down and control you while your there. It's simple math really; one system spends a part of their time on the ground, the other spends all of their time on the ground. So which one logically is going to have a better chance of survival on the ground?

You're confident in your skills, that's great. But I would implore you to seek a quality BJJ school and try it out. You may discover something new about where your skills really are.

[Syn7]

You can consider where the various Shaolin material came from. It was like the original cross training center of China. So Shaolin already follows that philosophy.

By the way, I never said a Shaolin practitioner couldn't or shouldn't cross train in something like BJJ, but that if one chose to it wouldn't be for a lack of something similar already in Shaolin.

In fact, people training at most Shaolin centers should be cross training if they are interested in developing themselves as fighters, or would probably be better off not doing Shaolin at all, and just go to an actual Sanda gym.

Actually I wasn't talking to you. But, yeah, sure. Was and is are not the same thing tho. Shit changes. Shaolin isn't anything like it was (assuming it ever was what people say it was, and I have my doubts) and I have no reason to believe you happened to find the one guy who learned teh deadliez. So you will have to excuse my skepticism. I mean, I said wrestling and you assumed single leg, so I'm not very impressed with your rationale at this point, and you haven't really said anything I haven't heard a million times. It didn't convince me before, I doubt it will now. If you make any new or provocative statements, I'll consider them. Till then, Yeah...

[LFJ]

I also don't know what video's you've seen of me but there aren't any.

You have never been on TV?

I have only posted videos of my students. And where are you getting this idea I learned from VCD's?

From those very videos.

As far as the "topic at hand", I will openly admit that my Shaolin ditangquan is probably not at the level yours is. But your BJJ is no where near the level of mine. The difference between us is I have studied Shaolin ditangquan, you have not studied BJJ.

Just to be clear, ditangquan often refers to tumbling sets of different styles that use it for offense and defense. The modern versions are just a bunch of breakfalls and headflips. Ditanggong also refers to actual ground fighting skills, which is what I'm talking about. And before you go on, I've not stated my experience with BJJ. I've only said it doesn't matter because even a non-martial artist can look and see what it involves, and that is what I've been talking about. You're the only one making "which is better" arguments, which I find silly.

So going back to my earlier statement, where is your evidence that Shaolin ditang could not be nullified by BJJ?

That's a silly question, as it always depends on the practitioner. Your previous statement suggested that Shaolin ditanggong would be easily taken by BJJ, but that's in your case. I've never made a claim on which is better, only to what extent they are developed and what their different objectives are.

It's simple math really; one system spends a part of their time on the ground, the other spends all of their time on the ground. So which one logically is going to have a better chance of survival on the ground?

You're comparing two different aspects. If you want to compare Shaolin ditanggong and BJJ you have to look at what they have in common, their defensive ground games. The other half of the time, BJJ works on ground offense. Shaolin wouldn't go there for practical reasons previously explained, which people are welcome to disagree with, but that's just strategic differences and not complete/incomplete skills since offensive ground fighting is not a necessity as is ground defense.

[LFJ]

I mean, I said wrestling and you assumed single leg, so I'm not very impressed with your rationale at this point,

I don't think so. You assumed that was my assumption (pulled out of your own ass) but apparently didn't pay attention when I said certainly not and went on to explain.

It didn't convince me before, I doubt it will now. If you make any new or provocative statements, I'll consider them. Till then, Yeah...

Not sure what I'm trying to convince you of? I've only been explaining Shaolin ground and knife defense strategies. It is what it is. Feel free to fancy another approach.

[Shaolin]

You have never been on TV?

Yes I have. I do a spot on the local news each year advertising my women's self-defense seminar that I do for breast cancer month. The spot showcases self-defense tactics, no traditional arts are profiled.

From those very videos.

Unless I or one of my students stated that I learned any material from VCD's your just making things up.

And before you go on, I've not stated my experience with BJJ.

Exactly. You're making claims against me but what do we know about you and your training. Plain and simple, what is your BJJ experience? Who is/was your coach?

[MightyB]

Sumbich! I tell you what - the BJJ guy might win on the ground and in the cage, but that outcome changes entirely if you throw a guan dao into the mix!

[LFJ]

Unless I or one of my students stated that I learned any material from VCD's your just making things up.

Actions speak louder than words...

[RenDaHai]

Wow, lots on this.

Look, Shaolin must be the largest named system of MA that exists. 1500 forms in Song Shan alone.

The truth is, in Shaolin now, there is not a culture of people getting together and groundfighting just for groundfighting. Maybe there was before and maybe there wil be again, but now that doesn't happen. Sure we have the techniques of Ditang, and the techniques of Luohan Shuijiao, but no one practices them to the extent that BJJ guys practice Jiujitsu.

I warrent if you know a LOT of Shaolin, and you practice JJ (fcuk it, its a japanese art) you will quickly see the similarity in principles and you will be able to identify the postures of the sleeping saints and the earth dragon techniques. And you will see the tools were there all along. But you need to actually practice it and JJ has that format down.