Stick drilling vs stick fighting: is there a connection?

[SavvySavage]

1)This first video is drilling. It looks very nice but eventually you can see the patterns they are making over and over again during each different drill.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=wYYIn...%3DwYYIn6OeBdw

2)This is a stick fighting tournament. When I look at the fights I can't see a connection between the drilling from the first video in relation with the fighting. They seem to just be whacking each other at weird angles while fighting.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tQQ_w67yqz8

What's the point of the first video? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just practice whacking each other fast and at weird angles and evading the other persons attack? The first video seems like a waste. Where am I going wrong?

[Subitai]

In the 2nd clip...they are using allot more padding and protection...and therefore, people react differently when they know they're not really going to get hurt.

Or you can get more crazy like the Dog Bros. Some use pads...some go hardcore w/o.

I'm not saying that Dog Bros is for everyone... but just like in boxing, you can see people getting set up and then countered.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELN-DQI5qc


The connection is there...it's just very brief. It's not a waste of your time if you win. No matter how brief the connection, it's only because the other guy doesn't want to get hurt, that people react differently than in drills. So what, sooner or later if he really wants to hurt you, he must give you some sort of an attack. Learning to recognize patterns, timing, rhythm and setting a guy up comes with experience.

Just like if you were to watch fencers with real swords. Not very movie like if the only thing you see is a quick parry and then in the blink of an eye...there's a hole in the other guys heart. It's kinda anti-climatic.

[Kymus]

In the 2nd clip...they are using allot more padding and protection...and therefore, people react differently when they know they're not really going to get hurt.

BINGO!!!

I remember seeing a video demonstration from - I think - Burton Richardson talking about knife sparring in Kali. First he gave his guys padding and they went back and forth a lot, then he gave them one of those electric knives and they changed completely. They mostly didn't try for an attack for fear that the other guy would counter and get them.

As I said previously, I think this is a metaphor for what's wrong with a lot of martial arts these days, but that's a different topic.

Either way, you're spot on. People act different when there is no fear.

[PlumDragon]

Wonderful. Everyone here recognizes that the patterns and lack of realism in the first video does not translate to a random, pressurized situation.

Rhetorical Question: How many of you are going to go practice some patterned flow drills, forms, or similar stuff in that video at your next training session...?

[Kymus]

Rhetorical Question: How many of you are going to go practice some patterned flow drills, forms, or similar stuff in that video at your next training session...?

These drills are beneficial learning aides for the student. The drills themselves aren't the problem; the problem is stopping there and not taking it a step further.

In my school we would do defensive drills where the oppoenent would come at you with a single stick and you'd have a single stick or a single stick and knife (you could do it empty handed, but we didn't train it much). This trained "pass and hit"; you hit the opponent's wrist/hand/forearm while either directing or redirecting their attack and then they counter and you keep going back and forth. It's a live drill that throws random attacks at you.

The problem is that it's easy to get caught up in it like a dance. You forget about the subtleties of actual combat and get rused in to thinking that it is combat because they're coming at you fast, at random, and you have to react. But..

1. Distance usually isn't accurate. 99% of the time, your partner will be striking from a somewhat safe distance. Realistically, they should be attacking closer
2. Even when doing similar drills involving empty hand vs stick defense, when flicking the stick away, they should be going for your legs on the down swing and this never really happens (though proper footwork is drilled in to you to avoid this, if they're at the right distance, it's different. You have to move further and think more).
3. If you screw up with the defense, you don't have to worry (99%) of the time about getting thwacked

This isn't the fault of the drill; it's the fault of not doing the drill real enough. When I do it with folks I've taught, I've started to play with this and after years of doing it so-so, I notice how different it feels when I do it right and how much more difficult it is.

When my partner comes at me, he should be closer, and thus I have to react quicker and stronger to do the technique right. When my defense involves a downswing of their hand (thus bringing their stick close to my legs), I need to not just do the right footwork (step back/to the side), I need to make sure they're in range to hit my leg if I don't react quick enough or step away enough.

I think the right appraoch should involve 3 basic steps:

1. no resistance
2. some resistance
3. full resistance

(of course, there are points in between, but this is the basics)

Even at the school I attended, we didn't really do the last one; just lots of the middle one. This lead to bad habits for me which took me something like 10 years to notice and begin to correct (and that's only because of my training philosophy).

Short version: the drills/forms aren't the problem. How students are taught to train them is the problem.

[Kellen Bassette]

These drills are beneficial learning aides for the student. The drills themselves aren't the problem; the problem is stopping there and not taking it a step further.

This sums it all up.

[SavvySavage]

These drills are beneficial learning aides for the student. The drills themselves aren't the problem; the problem is stopping there and not taking it a step further.

In my school we would do defensive drills where the oppoenent would come at you with a single stick and you'd have a single stick or a single stick and knife (you could do it empty handed, but we didn't train it much). This trained "pass and hit"; you hit the opponent's wrist/hand/forearm while either directing or redirecting their attack and then they counter and you keep going back and forth. It's a live drill that throws random attacks at you.

The problem is that it's easy to get caught up in it like a dance. You forget about the subtleties of actual combat and get rused in to thinking that it is combat because they're coming at you fast, at random, and you have to react. But..

1. Distance usually isn't accurate. 99% of the time, your partner will be striking from a somewhat safe distance. Realistically, they should be attacking closer
2. Even when doing similar drills involving empty hand vs stick defense, when flicking the stick away, they should be going for your legs on the down swing and this never really happens (though proper footwork is drilled in to you to avoid this, if they're at the right distance, it's different. You have to move further and think more).
3. If you screw up with the defense, you don't have to worry (99%) of the time about getting thwacked

This isn't the fault of the drill; it's the fault of not doing the drill real enough. When I do it with folks I've taught, I've started to play with this and after years of doing it so-so, I notice how different it feels when I do it right and how much more difficult it is.

When my partner comes at me, he should be closer, and thus I have to react quicker and stronger to do the technique right. When my defense involves a downswing of their hand (thus bringing their stick close to my legs), I need to not just do the right footwork (step back/to the side), I need to make sure they're in range to hit my leg if I don't react quick enough or step away enough.

I think the right appraoch should involve 3 basic steps:

1. no resistance
2. some resistance
3. full resistance

(of course, there are points in between, but this is the basics)

Even at the school I attended, we didn't really do the last one; just lots of the middle one. This lead to bad habits for me which took me something like 10 years to notice and begin to correct (and that's only because of my training philosophy).

Short version: the drills/forms aren't the problem. How students are taught to train them is the problem.

Good post.
Speaking generally, what are the inbetween moments? How should we train martial arts for combat realistically? In my experience you go from no resistance to all out. My teacher always says, "I can't give you fighting experience. You just have to do it." He is right but there aren't many specifics on how to do so.

[YouKnowWho]

I can't see a connection between the drilling from the first video in relation with the fighting.

If jab, cross, hook, hook combo doesn't exist in your forms, there is something wrong about your system. This is why you should create your own drills. Your drills should come from "your personal combat experience" and not from forms.

[bawang]

If jab, cross, hook, hook combo doesn't exist in your forms, there is something wrong about your system. This is why you should create your own drills. Your drills should come from "your personal combat experience" and not from forms.

jab cross hook is too primitive for kung fu. real kung fu only use forearm bridging and weird wrist qinna.

[Lucas]

jab cross hook is too primitive for kung fu. real kung fu only use forearm bridging and weird wrist qinna.

lol !!!!!!!!!!!

[David Jamieson]

If jab, cross, hook, hook combo doesn't exist in your forms, there is something wrong about your system. This is why you should create your own drills. Your drills should come from "your personal combat experience" and not from forms.

Or both if they check out.

In general I agree, jab/cross/hook and uppercut are the staple items of hand strikes.

And totally agree that if you can pull something from direct experience and drill it, then do so. No teacher like direct experience, ever.

[Kymus]

1)This is a stick fighting tournament. When I look at the fights I can't see a connection between the drilling from the first video in relation with the fighting. They seem to just be whacking each other at weird angles while fighting.

I've never done competitive stick fighting before, but the school I learned my Escrima from has trained a handful of championship stick fighters. Still, I see the same thing you see: random *whack whack whack*. I haven't seen tons of stick fighting competitions, but from what I have seen, that's all I've seen.

Maybe it's easy for me to say this, since I've never competed, but I imagine that if I ware in this position my first instinct would be to come in with something like a Heaven 6 and then if I'm getting pummeled back, to use either footwork to retreat or move to the side, or attempt a disarm. But again, things change when you're in the heat of the moment.

What's the point of the first video? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just practice whacking each other fast and at weird angles and evading the other persons attack? The first video seems like a waste. Where am I going wrong?

I think this is a metaphor for what's wrong with most martial arts these days.. there's a lack of training for each step of combat. I could go on (and on and on) but I'll stay on topic. Short answer: yes, you're absolutely correct.

[lance]

1)This first video is drilling. It looks very nice but eventually you can see the patterns they are making over and over again during each different drill.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=wYYIn...%3DwYYIn6OeBdw

2)This is a stick fighting tournament. When I look at the fights I can't see a connection between the drilling from the first video in relation with the fighting. They seem to just be whacking each other at weird angles while fighting.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tQQ_w67yqz8

What's the point of the first video? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just practice whacking each other fast and at weird angles and evading the other persons attack? The first video seems like a waste. Where am I going wrong?

SavvySavage , subitai is right about the videos you provided on your topic post , to me it really goes both ways . Ofcoarse the idea is to whack the opponent to disarm the opponent right ? But the opponent going be doing the samething as you so its' a challenge . So experiencing stick fighting is how you can figure out , how to battle your opponent . You see we can all get 2 - sticks and attack the opponent with both sticks right ? Your opponent going be defending himself against you and you going be doing the samething as your opponent so that ' s where the challenge is , when you experience stick fighting then , you ' ll know how to defeat your opponent .


Lance

[SavvySavage]

SavvySavage , subitai is right about the videos you provided on your topic post , to me it really goes both ways . Ofcoarse the idea is to whack the opponent to disarm the opponent right ? But the opponent going be doing the samething as you so its' a challenge . So experiencing stick fighting is how you can figure out , how to battle your opponent . You see we can all get 2 - sticks and attack the opponent with both sticks right ? Your opponent going be defending himself against you and you going be doing the samething as your opponent so that ' s where the challenge is , when you experience stick fighting then , you ' ll know how to defeat your opponent .


Lance

So learn to attack first, learn to attack fast....and skip the drills in the first video I posted?

[mawali]

1)This first video is drilling. It looks very nice but eventually you can see the patterns they are making over and over again during each different drill.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=wYYIn...%3DwYYIn6OeBdw

2)This is a stick fighting tournament. When I look at the fights I can't see a connection between the drilling from the first video in relation with the fighting. They seem to just be whacking each other at weird angles while fighting.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tQQ_w67yqz8

What's the point of the first video? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just practice whacking each other fast and at weird angles and evading the other persons attack? The first video seems like a waste. Where am I going wrong?

Drilling is usually a first step in any sport, where you do the individual components then over time actually test the level of skill against a similar opponent. I think that a lot of people confuse CMA ritual with other ritual types and this confuses people. Just like the Mongol or Uzbeks who, as part of their heritage do the various horseback "tricks", which ere actually part of the horde tactics since today the horde is no more. A past tradition relegated to what we see in NatGeo or some anthropological film. Even buskazi (polo) as game, shows skill still retained as part of competition and friendly sportsmanship.