On why I think Hendrik is on to something.

[seeyasoon]

I would like to remind you that it was you that advised me to re-read all those threads because you thought that I had repeated something said before. I am sorry that I used words and terms that you might not be familiar with and I say that because your reply above indicates to me that you did not understand what I said. It was not my intent to be arrogant and I understand perfectly that when one uses terms unfamiliar to someone, that it can be interpreted as arrogance but in matter of fact is actually a defense mechanism against the charge of ignorance.



At no point have I said Hendrik is 'egoless' nor have I condoned his drive for status. As I made clear from the outset, I leave all that baggage to the side and it is somewhat frustrating to read some of the points you make in your reply. The part of your post I cite above says to me that you have not read my opening post in full and / or have failed to understand what I wrote. To quote myself;



Now, these misunderstandings have obviously antagonised some of you and it is perhaps my fault for using words and phrasing unfamiliar to you. For that I am sorry. I think as soon as people see the word 'Hendrik', a filter seems to appear over their eyes that obscures the content and major points that one is making.

I had a friend who was highly intelligent used big words, however he couldn't adapt to the different people he was dealing with in life. He one day asked me to help him figure out how to install a battery in a clock. I was 12 years old, he was 38 so how smart was he really?

[KPM]

It's not all anyone does. They also spend time figuring out how many dots to put between each letter of their favorite vocabulary word.

Get's tiresome doesn't it? Kind of like someone responding with the SAME mantra on almost every thread. But I think you missed that point, as so many others seem to be missing points here lately. It so much easier to just take swipes at what someone says and pick at them rather than try to see and understand what they are actually saying.

[KPM]

Yes. I agree it is tiresome BUT is it not also tiresome to continually here how A or B is NOT the "real WC" and yet so no evidence from the naysayers as to what the real WC yes? Or to have someone pontificate how they have the secret ( lost or otherwise) of WC and then not show one practical example even though they post videos all the time? ( Yes that applied to Hendrick, but others as well).

Ah! But at least THAT can be entertaining!


The point being that as tiresome as it is to read people asking over and over for a visual example, it is just as tiring hearing over and over the theoretical pontifications with ZERO evidence to back them up.

Well, it shouldn't be. It should be expected. Because this is a discussion forum, not a video sharing site, not youtube, and not facebook. And I think people are largely reluctant to go to the effort to provide video because of the way it is more or less "demanded" rather than requested politely...,kind of an "oh yeah! Well prove it!" attitude rather than one of genuinely wanting to know how someone else does something. The other huge factor here is how critical forumites can be. Heck, I've got multiple people taking pot shots at what I post on more than one thread who aren't really even participating in the discussion itself. You really think I would want to put up a video for them to tear apart? If I can't expect to be treated respectfully and politely in a discussion, why in the heck would I put myself in the positon to have my performance openly criticized by these same people? I could be showing the best Wing Chun in the world, but I certainly would not trust any of them to give me accurate feedback or an honest opinion. I might have something I want to show to, say...Paddington, but then I know the bozos would jump in and tear it to shreds. So why would I? THAT, IMHO, is why you don't see people posting videos very often.

[Paddington]

I had a friend who was highly intelligent used big words, however he couldn't adapt to the different people he was dealing with in life. He one day asked me to help him figure out how to install a battery in a clock. I was 12 years old, he was 38 so how smart was he really?

152

I take your point though.

[JPinAZ]

And I think people are largely reluctant to go to the effort to provide video because of the way it is more or less "demanded" rather than requested politely...

The long post:
To butt in on this and give another view point - I hear this point, but IMO this type of excuse is probably a cop out in most of cases (maybe not all). For example, guys like Alan Orr have never had a problem with this. People ask him a question, say what he's doing isn't wing chun, badger him, whatever - and he puts up a clip showing how he trains and his methods. He's proven time and again, he does what he says he does and when called out, puts up a clip - even if people don't agree with his methods. I for one am one of those that don't fully agree with his methods/application, but give 100% credit that he makes zero excuses and backs it up with videos of him training hard, sparring, etc. And he does it showing little concern about what others think or how they ask - It's easy for him to do because he is actually doing what he says he is. Which I think is the point.

Basically, who gives a sh!t how someone asks? In most cases, ot probably wouldn't matter if a video request was sent via formal invitation with a nice ribbon & bow attached - if the people are full of sh!t (no one specific here, general statement), they'll always have some excuse to not put up a video of them actually DOING what they talk about or against - even if they regularly post videos of them doing all sort of other things (forms, drills, standing around talking), in which case the 'I don't have a way to make videos' excuse won't fly.
IMO, people don't post up application clips when asked, even if they have already posted up all sorts of other clips, because then they may be exposed for being full of hot air. If they make an excuse 'oh I film everything else, but just not my sparring' or 'well, since you didn't ask nicely I won't do it', then people won't be able to call them on the fact that they probably don't train to the level of skill building needed to make a video showing the results of their training methods against skilled, resisting opponents. Skill which most likely just doesn't exist.

Not to 'pick on Hendrik', but he's a great example of this. Always going on about how he's discovered the key to the connection of the lost wing chun information most of the rest of the WC community doesn't have (his words). KLots of claims and bold statements from his end. And he's made hours and hours of videos droning on about all sorts of similar stuff. He even has a few of those clips with another person present, but not even one drill, let alone application. The reason is pretty obvious why that is, and it has nothing to do with whether or not some asked for it with a 'pretty please, with sugar on top' - for all his talk, no one has been able to show one shred of evidence that anything he's 'selling' improves wing chun skill at all.

Now to be fair, I can't talk about others without pointing the mirror back at myself. I simply don't post videos. I may in the future, but when I'm in training, it's not what I focus on - I focus on skill building. I only have to prove what I do to myself and my students. But then, you'll be hard pressed to see me making any claims of most-correct or most-original anything. I only speak from what I've learned from my own understanding based on personal experience. One thing to note, I have no problem touching hands or demonstrating what I know in person, and I've traveled to different states at times to do just that and made some great friends in the process. .......Ok, bit of a tangent there.
Point is, my choice to not make any videos at all is my personal preference - I just don't make the time or feel enough need. If I did though, I wouldn't use a cop out of 'because you begged, I won't show you' - specially if I was tearing someone else's method down.

Ok, the short post (haha): I agree that, if someone regularly posts clips of then 'training', doing forms, chi sau drills and no sparring/application against good, resisting opponents, but still talks a lot of 'yang', maybe like saying how this way is the 'wrong way', or their way is the more right way, or even 'that's not wing chun' then they should have no problem backing it up by posting a clip of them doing it the 'right way' they promote without excuse and regardless how it's asked of them.
That is unless, they don't really do what they say and are afraid of being exposed

[KPM]

Now to be fair, I can't talk about others without pointing the mirror back at myself. I simply don't post videos. I may in the future, but when I'm in training, it's not what I focus on - I focus on skill building. I only have to prove what I do to myself and my students. But then, you'll be hard pressed to see me making any claims of most-correct or most-original anything. I only speak from what I've learned from my own understanding based on personal experience. One thing to note, I have no problem touching hands or demonstrating what I know in person, and I've traveled to different states at times to do just that and made some great friends in the process. .......Ok, bit of a tangent there.
Point is, my choice to not make any videos at all is my personal preference - I just don't make the time or feel enough need. If I did though, I wouldn't use a cop out of 'because you begged, I won't show you' - specially if I was tearing someone else's method down.

I'm pretty much in the same place JP. Only difference is, I wouldn't consider it a cop out if someone is taunting me and being an a$$ and essentially saying..."yeah, well prove it"! I'm going to tell them they can kiss my a$$ and I'm not going to prove anything. Wouldn't you? Now if I was on the side being an a$$ and trying to tear someone else down, then yeah, I should be able to back it up. But I try not to be on that side.

And for the record, since this has been trotted out more than once here recently (not saying you specifically now JP).....when I commented on Alan Orr's guys fighting I complimented them and said "strong work." Then I simply expressed the opinion that to me, it didn't look a lot like Wing Chun. I was NOT tearing down anyone else's method and I was NOT saying "hey I can do that better." It was a simple observation that brought down a whole rash of sh!t that people are still using to take pot shots at me. But that's all I'm going to say on the matter, so please don't anyone here feel the need to turn this into another whole cr@p shoot!

[JPinAZ]

[B]I'm pretty much in the same place JP. Only difference is, I wouldn't consider it a cop out if someone is taunting me and being an a$$ and essentially saying..."yeah, well prove it"! I'm going to tell them they can kiss my a$$ and I'm not going to prove anything. Wouldn't you?

Don't know since I don't make clips. But if someone was calling me out and demanding something of me, I may just tell them to pound sand. But then, if (hypothetically) I WAS the type that was 'being an a55' and telling someone they were incorrect/doing it wrong, their WC was garbage, and if I WAS doing it based on my views on years of experience and I already made videos on a regular basis, then yeah, I probably would make a video showing how myself doing it the right way to shut them up!

But then, I'm not that guy (well for the most part lol), so it's all hypothetical. But if I was the loud squeeky wheel and someone called me out, most would say - put up or shut up. And I'd agree 100%

Now if I was on the side being an a$$ and trying to tear someone else down, then yeah, I should be able to back it up. But I try not to be on that side.

And then there's some people that excel at it without even trying

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes. I agree it is tiresome BUT is it not also tiresome to continually here how A or B is NOT the "real WC" and yet so no evidence from the naysayers as to what the real WC yes? Or to have someone pontificate how they have the secret ( lost or otherwise) of WC and then not show one practical example even though they post videos all the time? ( Yes that applied to Hendrick, but others as well).

Ah! But at least THAT can be entertaining!


The point being that as tiresome as it is to read people asking over and over for a visual example, it is just as tiring hearing over and over the theoretical pontifications with ZERO evidence to back them up.

Well, it shouldn't be. It should be expected. Because this is a discussion forum, not a video sharing site, not youtube, and not facebook. And I think people are largely reluctant to go to the effort to provide video because of the way it is more or less "demanded" rather than requested politely...,kind of an "oh yeah! Well prove it!" attitude rather than one of genuinely wanting to know how someone else does something. The other huge factor here is how critical forumites can be. Heck, I've got multiple people taking pot shots at what I post on more than one thread who aren't really even participating in the discussion itself. You really think I would want to put up a video for them to tear apart? If I can't expect to be treated respectfully and politely in a discussion, why in the heck would I put myself in the positon to have my performance openly criticized by these same people? I could be showing the best Wing Chun in the world, but I certainly would not trust any of them to give me accurate feedback or an honest opinion. I might have something I want to show to, say...Paddington, but then I know the bozos would jump in and tear it to shreds. So why would I? THAT, IMHO, is why you don't see people posting videos very often.

I agree that you probably won't be treated with respect if you show a video that, according to some, is NOT WC, since I have seen it happen over and over here, again and again.
Of course, now I MAY be mistaken, but haven't YOU done that as well?
I am asking a sincere question mind you, I am asking have YOU gonna ahead a "teared to shreds" a WC video that someone else has posted?
If so, well...

[KPM]

I agree that you probably won't be treated with respect if you show a video that, according to some, is NOT WC, since I have seen it happen over and over here, again and again.
Of course, now I MAY be mistaken, but haven't YOU done that as well?
I am asking a sincere question mind you, I am asking have YOU gonna ahead a "teared to shreds" a WC video that someone else has posted?
If so, well...

No. Absolutely not. I stated already recently that when I responded to Alan Orr I said "congrats" and "great job" and I simply expressed the opinion that it didn't look a lot like Wing Chun to me. I did not tear anything down. I did not say "you are doing it wrong and I can do it better." And I tried to remain as respectful as possible through-out that discussion despite the fact that the responses I received tended to not be very respectful and I was called numerous not so nice names. So no, I have never torn anyone's videos to shreds. Asking politely for explanations and clarification is not the same thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No. Absolutely not. I stated already recently that when I responded to Alan Orr I said "congrats" and "great job" and I simply expressed the opinion that it didn't look a lot like Wing Chun to me. I did not tear anything down. I did not say "you are doing it wrong and I can do it better." And I tried to remain as respectful as possible through-out that discussion despite the fact that the responses I received tended to not be very respectful and I was called numerous not so nice names. So no, I have never torn anyone's videos to shreds. Asking politely for explanations and clarification is not the same thing.

Good to hear that dude, seriously, because you know we have a major issue with that here.

[tc101]

No. Absolutely not. I stated already recently that when I responded to Alan Orr I said "congrats" and "great job" and I simply expressed the opinion that it didn't look a lot like Wing Chun to me.

Yes and that is called a backhand compliment which is an insult. Do you not understand that?

My question is what makes you think you know what wing chun looks like in fighting? Idle speculation. Do you get it! You are not fighting so you don't know. You can't point to anyone who does it like you think it should be done in fighting either. Armchair idle speculation insulting some one who is doing it. Can you understand why Orr and his group might be offended by that?

[sanjuro_ronin]

One day it would be nice to see the "real WC".
Or at least what it is suppose to look like.

[tc101]

One day it would be nice to see the "real WC".
Or at least what it is suppose to look like.

To see it is not difficult. Just get in the ring. If you don't get in the ring you can't see it. What you do there is the real wing chun for you. How well you can do it is another question.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I guess the question begs to be asked:
IF ( big if of course) WC is concept based system or principle based system, then as long as you are adhering to those concepts and principles, are you not doing WC?
Regardless of what it may look like when you do it?

[KPM]

One day it would be nice to see the "real WC".
Or at least what it is suppose to look like.

There is no such thing as "real WC", only versions of WC.