WC teachers would have nothing to teach if...

[Matrix]

Good question - it has everything to do with feeling the power and root and being connected. It is a neglected aspect of training that must be drilled, because that is WCK, for me.

Without it, WCK is nothing less than poor kickboxing, short hand Karate, or economical movement Kenpo.

WCK is not patty cake, and Chi Sao is not slap fighting. WCK without structure (alignment, body mechanics, etc.) is empty and not worth practicing. It would be like doing lousy Fujian boxing - a semblence of the same moves, but without the core root that makes it go. The body is so big in comparison to the arms. WHy not tap that power?

IMO, this is spot on. Well said Robert.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you feel that specifically incorporating structure into the cirriculum is a disadvantage? If so, why?
Just curious. Thanks

Every system incorporates structure, I think that Roberts' tends to focus on it more in the beginning so that that "delivery platform" for their techniques is well developed.
Is that advantageous compared to system that don't?
To be honest, I don't know.
I can tell you this though, from experience I have learned that certain systems need to be trained a certain way to get the right development.

[m1k3]

Paul,

Good question - it has everything to do with feeling the power and root and being connected. It is a neglected aspect of training that must be drilled, because that is WCK, for me.

Without it, WCK is nothing less than poor kickboxing, short hand Karate, or economical movement Kenpo.

WCK is not patty cake, and Chi Sao is not slap fighting. WCK without structure (alignment, body mechanics, etc.) is empty and not worth practicing. It would be like doing lousy Fujian boxing - a semblence of the same moves, but without the core root that makes it go. The body is so big in comparison to the arms. WHy not tap that power?

If I had to change a flat, I would rather use my whole body, than just my arms alone. Much of my early training only involved the arms, or what I could muster, but without the potential of the body, it was a shell.

It would be like having the Batmobile - but a movie version that needs to be pulled, and only gadgets that look good onscreen.

It'd be like having a woman, but without the sex.

Hope I made this clear.

Robert, Paul sort of touched on this but I'm curious about the drills. In particular static vs mobile drills.

What I can best relate it to is my days of playing football. I played both offensive and defensive line. We did a lot of what you would probably call structure work. There was some static drills, mostly showing you how to set your base and set up your initial pre-contact structure, and then lots of drills working your in contact skills, keeping your balance, unbalancing the opposing lineman and of course foot work.

Would it be a fair assumption that you are doing similar things in your class based on a WC structure and the type of contact expected under those conditions?

[LoneTiger108]

I find this very interesting. I don't expect any art to be 'complete'. I don't expect my BJJ training to be complete. It has a specific focus. Is it worthy for self defense as is, as far as I can tell yes. I have seen enough of the Gracie challenge matches and the early days of UFC to see that it can work very well by itself. But by no means do I consider it complete. This is why I still work my WC drills, even if only by myself. It fills in some holes in the BJJ game. If I was serious about competing I would be taking MT or boxing. I wouldn't be taking WC as I'm not sure there are that many WC schools that are training MMA fighters to compete.

It may all depend on what you believe to be a 'complete' martial art. Basically, imho, any empty hand martial art is not complete. In fact, it is questionable if it martial at all (although it may definitely have a martial origin) I would also go as far to say that competitive fighting isn't martial, it's sport.

For me, a complete martial art is one that offers solo and group practice with and without weaponry. Now if you only want to learn a competitive combat sport, don't practise Wing Chun, unless you can find a club that trains for that purpose. Alan Orrs approach here in the UK is good example.

WC is not a religion. It is a tool.

I find it strange that people adopt a fighting method as if it were a hammer and everything else in the world looks like a nail, and that of there are screws to be screwed and screwdrivers lying around that they persist with that hammer.

I agree, it's not a religion. But I disagree, as I don't for one second think that it is only a 'tool' as you describe it. To attempt to fit Wing Chun neatly into a box/catergory is just unwise imo. Yes, Wing Chun has specifics that only Wing Chun people train, but that shouldn't mean that that's all we are known for.

For example, I trained with some students from other schools and found that their weaponry knowledge was zero. They had trained for over 5 years. This is a problem imo. They could also tell that I knew 'something' the moment they touched hands as it must've just felt completely different to anything they had felt before. The reason was I was a Weaponry Sifu.

[MysteriousPower]

Yip Man wasn't always so little or frail as you see him in his last days. He was healthy and quite strong for his size. From stories I have heard, he always had people on their heels or on the balls of their feet, and always guided them into objects or into other classmates. He was able to do this with his manipulation of body power (structure, mechanics, alignment) through his bridges. Again, as I said, simply by doing the Cern Fuk and Cern Tok of the Jong, you can develop the 6 powers, but it must be done with the body.

The late Wong Shun Leung and I did Chi Sao back in 1987 in HK and later again in the early 1990's in SF. He pushed and pulled me about like I was nothing. Considering the size difference, I was very impressed. Ho Kam Ming also did the same to me when he visited Hawkins in 1988 in Los Angeles. These were two of Yip Man's students who have no Tai Ji training (which I assume you are referring to Hawkins), and practice and only taught WCK. If not for their body power, how could they move a big guy like me? Tsui Sheung Tien, whom I met in 1987 in Cheung Sha Wan area in Kowloon, also has this ability and very sticky, but he also learned Tai Ji Quan.

Others in WCK under Yip Man tell us that Yip Man hardly did Chi Sao with them. If this is so, how could they teach you this method? Hawkins Cheung is tiny - about 5' 4", 108 lbs. He has often controlled me and thrown me about when I did not understand his method. One Yip Man student I met had no such ability with his body and lacked a rooted stance, was of big size and strong arms, but totally lacking in this ability with his body. So it is not across the board.

Even others can tell you they will hit you during Chi Sao and there is nothing you can do about it and they do not use hand speed, but body control.

Alan Orr is not a big guy, he's big for his size, but he is a physically fit guy. In pictures on his website, you can see the difference in size between us.

I am sorry if you did not learn WCK like this, but it is a facet of Yip Man's art.

That entire paragraph brought up another good point. This uprooting only really happens during contrived drills like chi sao. No one gets uprooted during sparring, only hit.

[Vajramusti]

That entire paragraph brought up another good point. This uprooting only really happens during contrived drills like chi sao. No one gets uprooted during sparring, only hit.

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Not true IMO.

joy chaudhuri

[MysteriousPower]

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Not true IMO.

joy chaudhuri

Very true, IMO. Why post if it's only going to be one sentence? Add something worthwhile to the discussion.

[chusauli]

That entire paragraph brought up another good point. This uprooting only really happens during contrived drills like chi sao. No one gets uprooted during sparring, only hit.

Mysterious, it would be good to know your background, who you studied with, what lineage, how long you studied and your real name. What is there to hide? Otherwise, I think you are just a Troll.

I don't have to talk about Wong Shun Leung's or Ho Kam Ming's background, neither Hawkins' or Tsui's. They are the pillars of the first generation of students under Yip Man.

Do you just think Chi Sao is just contrived? Chi Sao can be obviously planned, artificial, or lacking in spontaneity; forced; unnatural, especially if you have some poor instruction, or a beginner, but the converse is also true. And you have never been uprooted before in sparring? Then it is you who is lacking in experienced partners and are limited, not just in WCK, but in fighting. If you spar with other systems, you know people will try to trip you, throw you, take you down, and you will be uprooted.

I don't know what else to say.

This is not WCK's problem, this is your problem.

[MysteriousPower]

I do not know you or even know much of you. What I have witnessed is that the main reason people give you're opinions credence over someone like me is because of whatever reputation you have built up. If you were anonymous like me your opinins would not be taken as seriously. Try this. Try posting under a different name and see if people give your opinins so much credence.

Call me a troll? My opinion is worth as much as yours. You have a famous name. That is your only edge in posting.

I have been thrown and tripped before...but never by someone who trained in contrived structure drill training. They just train.

Mysterious, it would be good to know your background, who you studied with, what lineage, how long you studied and your real name. What is there to hide? Otherwise, I think you are just a Troll.

I don't have to talk about Wong Shun Leung's or Ho Kam Ming's background, neither Hawkins' or Tsui's. They are the pillars of the first generation of students under Yip Man.

Do you just think Chi Sao is just contrived? Chi Sao can be obviously planned, artificial, or lacking in spontaneity; forced; unnatural, especially if you have some poor instruction, or a beginner, but the converse is also true. And you have never been uprooted before in sparring? Then it is you who is lacking in experienced partners and are limited, not just in WCK, but in fighting. If you spar with other systems, you know people will try to trip you, throw you, take you down, and you will be uprooted.

I don't know what else to say.

This is not WCK's problem, this is your problem.

[LoneTiger108]

I do not know you or even know much of you. What I have witnessed is that the main reason people give you're opinions credence over someone like me is because of whatever reputation you have built up. If you were anonymous like me your opinins would not be taken as seriously. Try this. Try posting under a different name and see if people give your opinins so much credence.

Call me a troll? My opinion is worth as much as yours. You have a famous name. That is your only edge in posting.

Probably one of the most democratic posts I've seen of late! I have to admit, when I first started posting here I was in awe of people like Robert Chu mainly because I respect people who promote Wing Chun effectively.

BUT I have had my cross words with him too, and had all sorts of issues at the beginning as I was somehow pigeon holed as being a spokesman for Lee Shing Family and as that particular family is still relatively unknown outside the UK my opinions were sh1t on from a great height!

That was after I added my signature and declared who I learnt from so my advice is STAY ANONYMOUS!!!

[MysteriousPower]

Probably one of the most democratic posts I've seen of late! I have to admit, when I first started posting here I was in awe of people like Robert Chu mainly because I respect people who promote Wing Chun effectively.

BUT I have had my cross words with him too, and had all sorts of issues at the beginning as I was somehow pigeon holed as being a spokesman for Lee Shing Family and as that particular family is still relatively unknown outside the UK my opinions were sh1t on from a great height!

That was after I added my signature and declared who I learnt from so my advice is STAY ANONYMOUS!!!

Thanks for the support, buddy. No hard feelings for the other posts. I misread your posts and now all offenses have been cleared up.

[YungChun]

What Robert said is true and basic.. It doesn't matter who said it.. Truth needs no resume.. Conversely, erroneous blanket statements also need no resume to see them for what they are.

Interesting variation on the ad hominem attack though..

[chusauli]

I do not know you or even know much of you. What I have witnessed is that the main reason people give you're opinions credence over someone like me is because of whatever reputation you have built up. If you were anonymous like me your opinins would not be taken as seriously. Try this. Try posting under a different name and see if people give your opinins so much credence.

Call me a troll? My opinion is worth as much as yours. You have a famous name. That is your only edge in posting.

I have been thrown and tripped before...but never by someone who trained in contrived structure drill training. They just train.

Stick to the issue.

Who are you?

What is your lineage? How long have you trained?

If you've been tripped or thrown, then you have been uprooted.

Your opinion is as good as mine.

Don't worry about names. Maybe I have it all wrong; I can learn from anyone. If they're wrong, they can still teach me how not to be wrong; if correct, they can enhance my knowledge. All the "reputation" or "name" is silly.

A reputation is not even the real me - people think they know me here through the forum, but never met me in person. How do they know me?

[punchdrunk]

To say that pushing and pulling in chi sao is more like tai chi is simply incorrect. Hawkin's Cheung definately didn't make it up from his tai chi practice, it is an integral part of chi sao to work your balance and your partners. Take your partners balance and feel for yourself how much more control you have than just using "fast" hands.
I don't feel R. Chu's name gives him instant credit on the board, people argue with him all the time. However even if you disagree, he says interesting things and is willing to share.

[MysteriousPower]

I am not trying to start a war. Let us get back on track.

Everyone relax please.