The Lineage of Yip Man

[chusauli]

LOL, That's a pretty pathetic basis for a lawsuit. If you can sue someone who portrays your ancestor as a loser in a work of fiction only loosely based on fact, IMO the legislators need to be whacked firmly about the head.

Maybe they should sue the producers of Ip Man for making him look better than YC and YKS.

IMO such legal action makes their ancestors look even worse, as the manifest evidence is that the ancestors' offspring turned out to be idiots.

The Chinese "loss of face" is the issue here - they always need their "ancestors" to be great and invincible, rather than portrayed as normal people. Its too much at times.

[chusauli]

Personally of all the stories I have heard the one I heard from Moy Yat I think maybe closest to the truth if only because it fits all the observable facts is a nice simple manner.

It wasn't Leung Bik but Fung Wah and he had gone with Yip to vist him. LB was used for marketing since few would have heard of Fung Wah or known he was Leung Jans student and Yip was in need of money. They met after Yip fled to Hk in 49.

This story would explain much. Why the WC he taught in Fushan and HK were different. Why in HK his WC changed from what he taught his first students which was very close to his Fushan WC. Yip did tell several students about Fung Wahs skill and seeing him break dummy arms. It also explains both the LB story being made up and still learning different methods from another student of Leung Jan

Of course one might think it is to neat a package.

If you look at Leung Sheung's WCK - it is so close to Yuen Kay Shan's. A few minor differences, a little tightening of movements, reversing the Huen Sao to inward (a Yip Man signature), but otherwise 90% the same . So is it really that much of a change? I think the Cheung Bo WCK has quite a few clips (the guy was Sum Nung's student before...) on youtube, and you can see the closeness with that and HK Yip Man WCK in the early stages.

[Shadow_warrior8]

The references I have from goverment to the wingchun families in china, are not related to Ip Man Lineage in blood, neither do they owe Ip Man to mention Leung Bik. They are telling you the evidence as they know it.
Its interesting despite all the physical evidence, we are still speculating.

I heard also a story about the family of Fung, Fung Zhu going to look for Ip man and he ended up exchanging with Ip Ching. Again another story.

Done my part here. Leung Bik is a closed revelation as far as I am concerned.

Will come and give more evidence on other sections of Ip Man lineage when I do more research in china from china.

[hunt1]

Shadow I enjoy your posts,keep up the good work. I enjoy the different stories. I am most interested in Non Ip Man stuff only because I think Ip Man stuff has been out there so long.

Robert not sure if I wasn't clear in my previous post or I misread yours but your post was exactly the point I was trying to make. If Moy Yat was correct and Yip stated learning from /training with Fung Wah in 49/50 then it makes perfect sense that he would teach his first students the wing chun he was most comfortable with and then teach or integrate the newer material latter on as he became more comfortable with it hence the change in his teachings over time.

No different I am sure than if you were teaching in 89/90 your material was different than what you taught later on after you had time to assimilate Hawkins wing chun.

[chusauli]

Robert not sure if I wasn't clear in my previous post or I misread yours but your post was exactly the point I was trying to make. If Moy Yat was correct and Yip stated learning from /training with Fung Wah in 49/50 then it makes perfect sense that he would teach his first students the wing chun he was most comfortable with and then teach or integrate the newer material latter on as he became more comfortable with it hence the change in his teachings over time.

No different I am sure than if you were teaching in 89/90 your material was different than what you taught later on after you had time to assimilate Hawkins wing chun.

Hunt,

You may be correct...not much more is known about Fung Wah. Perhaps Fung Wah had this influence. As I learn about history, we have no definites, only speculation, and although we try to choose the most logical stream of events, perhaps another course can be true.

We should always think there is "noise" in the communication, that we don't know for sure, forgot or overlooked details, were insufficient to understand at the time, or are mistaken. In this way, we can only speculate, and consider and weigh possibilities.

Weng Chun has said that Dai Duk Lan had an influence on Yip Man as well, as well as a possibility that Chu Chung Man was a distant relative of Yip Man. Who knows? Certainly we know Yip Man "borrowed" their Jong design. Perhaps Yip Man put together Baat Jaam Dao himself with external influences and classical references. We know consistently the Yuen Kay Shan pole and Yip Man pole share great similarity as do the 3 hand sets, but the Jong and Yee Ji Dao (knives) differs greatly in juxtaposition and content.

Yes, you are correct - what I taught in the 80's and 90's is different from what I teach today, and have been teaching since 2000...

[Shadow_warrior8]

The Ving Tsun was teached to the "Young Lords" of FatSan by Chan Wah Shun, and between those young ones, there was the most famous 'till today: IP MAN

"My grandpa managed the Ip Family finances. We owned restaurants, funeral houses and the famous Song Garden where the food for silk worms grow. The Song Garden was very huge and the goverment needed to make a road in the same place. So, after my grandpa dies the road was called Fuk Yin. This road is very near to Chopstick street, where Leung Jaan lived." - said Ip Ching to Moy Yat.

http://lukdimbungwaan.blogspot.com/

[Shadow_warrior8]

http://www.foshanmuseum.com/wbzy/xsl...sp?xsyj_ID=261

Ip Man in fatshan as recorded as by the Fatshan Chinese Goverment

佛山市博物馆网站——学术研究

刘建乐 佛山市博物馆副馆长　

摘　要：佛山是中国南派武术之乡，其浓厚的武术文化氛围培育了咏春拳名家叶问。叶问又像一位使者，对咏春拳 的传播、推广做出了杰出的贡献。为了纪念叶问宗师，佛山建成叶问堂，使之成为咏春弟子寻根拜祖的重要场所， 也是佛山武术文化的历史见证。

关键词：佛山武术文化　叶问　咏春拳　叶问堂

一、佛山浓厚的武术文化培育了咏春拳名家叶问
　　佛山是一座历史悠久的文化名城，“肇始于晋，得名于唐”。唐宋时期，佛山成为工商业城镇，至明清时期已 成为举世闻名的“天下四大镇”、“天下四聚”之一。佛山在历史上经济繁荣，人民生活富庶，但地幅狭小，地势 平坦，天然防御条件差，且地处广州西南部交通要道，历来为兵家必争之地，居民为求自保，很早就形成习武强身 、自卫御敌的传统。明正统十四年（1449年），广东爆发黄萧养农民起义，起义军围攻广州，并分兵进攻佛山 ，当时佛山“无甲兵之援，险塞之限，徒以其忠义之激发，能使阡陌耒耜之辈，奋而为精兵，而大敌 破者”, [1] 这足以说明“阡陌耒耜之辈”是经过技击训练的，具有一定的武术功底，才可以成为精兵，打败入侵的黄萧养起义 军。
　明、清以来，随着佛山社会经济的发展，陶瓷、铸造、纺织、漂染和农产品加工等行业极为发达，其从业人员大 都喜好参与武术活动，练武既可以让他们拥有强健的体魄，为从事繁重的体力劳动提供资本，又可以成为这些社会 底层群众相互沟通的桥梁和纽带，成为他们的精神寄托。太平天国运动失败后，不少武林人士因参与这次革命，遭 到清政府追杀迫害，而佛山既临近广州又手工业、商业繁盛，实为当时武林人士避祸安身之所，再加上佛山民间素 有尚武的风气，于是吸引了各界武林人士纷沓而至，南派武术著名的洪拳、咏春拳、蔡李佛拳，虽然并不发源于佛 山，但佛山却成为其重要的发扬基地。至清末民初，佛山成为中国南派武术之乡，习武者数以万计，武馆林立，名 家辈出，在中国武术史上占有相当重要的地位。
　叶问就是佛山浓厚的武术文化培育出来的一代宗师。叶问（1893-1972），原名叶继问，佛山桑园叶氏家族人。叶家为佛山望族，坚持尊儒重教的严格家风，使叶问形成儒雅的 性格。由于叶问幼时体弱多病，而此时佛山咏春拳宗师梁赞的弟子陈华顺（找钱华）租用桑园叶家宗祠设馆授徒， 叶问便拜其为师，学习咏春拳术。由于叶问天资聪颖，领悟力强，深得师傅的喜爱，陈华顺对此年幼弟子极为疼爱 ，自收叶问为徒后，则不再接受任何人士拜门学技，叶问成为其封门弟子，各位年长师兄如吴仲素、陈汝棉、雷汝 齐等，对此年幼师弟更是照顾有加。陈华顺逝世后，叶问再随师兄吴仲素钻研拳技。到叶问十六岁那年，远离佛山 ，赴香港求学，就读于圣士提反学校，后经同学介绍，认识梁赞的儿子梁璧，并随其习武三年，尽得咏春真传，拳 艺突飞猛进。当他再回佛山时，包括吴仲素在内的同门诸师兄弟在拳艺上都远逊于他。以后的数十年间，叶问常与 武术人士切磋交流，摄取各拳派的精华，使其拳艺达到炉火纯青的境界，又因其屡挫凶徒，屡败强手，秉承“习武 先立品”、“重节而轻利”的高尚武德，因此在佛山武术界被誉为咏春拳的第二位“梁赞”。
二、叶问是佛山武术文化传播的重要使者
　佛山咏春拳宗师梁赞(1826—1901)，原籍鹤山县古劳乡东便村，自幼随父在佛山筷子街经营“赞生堂 ”药材店，精通医术。少时喜武，广聘名师传授武功，曾随粤剧武生黄华宝学习咏春拳，对咏春拳可谓已“深得其 奥，建于化境”。当时不少武林人士慕名来佛山与其较量，俱为其所败，从而使咏春拳在南中国一带名声大振。但 梁赞因药店缠身，再加上咏春拳的教授方法比较困难和吃力，难以多收多教，学费比较昂贵，非一般人所能负担的 ，因此求技者多是一些富家子弟，因此当时“咏春拳”也被称为“少爷拳”，未能广授门徒，继其衣砵者，唯陈华 顺一人。而陈华顺在佛山桑园叶家宗祠设馆授徒，有成就的弟子仅吴小鲁、吴仲素、雷汝济、陈汝棉及叶问等人。 其中，只有叶问担当起推广和传播咏春拳的历史使命，成为佛山武术文化传播的重要使者。在叶问三十余年的教拳 生涯中，可分为佛山教拳和香港教拳两个不同阶段：
　（一）、佛山教拳
　1938年，日本侵略军占领佛山，佛山经济衰退，民不聊生。当时，叶问生活十分艰难，幸赖好友周清泉不时 接济，才得以度过难关。为报答周清泉接济之恩，叶问于1941—1943年间，在佛山永安路联昌花纱行内开 馆教授周清泉之子周光耀、外甥伦佳，以及郭富、陈志新、吕应、伦佳、周细等学习咏春拳，这些人成为叶问的第 一批门徒。
<br>　　叶问十分注重对徒弟的选择，他常说：“徒弟选择一个好师傅，固然难，但师傅选择一个好徒弟，更 加困难。”作为一个以教拳为职志的人，能有这种心态，是难能可贵的，可见其对教拳的认真态度和对所教徒弟的 高度责任心。而郭富就是叶问在佛山挑选出来的一个好徒弟。当年，郭富在佛山永安路一间糖面铺打工，糖面铺对 面就是联昌花纱行。当郭富得知叶问在此教授咏春拳后，便托人找叶问拜师，却被叶问一口回绝。半年后，叶问终 于被郭富的诚意打动，才允许其同富家子弟一起学习咏春拳。1945年，受战争影响，糖面铺关闭，郭富失业后 只好回到平洲乡下，与师傅不辞而别。当叶问发现自己喜欢的徒弟离开佛山后，就亲自到郭富的乡下平洲夏教找他 ，于是就在郭富家的祖屋，叶问和郭富一起练拳，手把手教郭富，郭富则更加用心地练武。在此后的近两年时间里 ，叶问经常步行几十里路来到夏教，继续向郭富传授咏春拳术，并将自己的所有拳谱、药书让郭富翻抄记录了一遍 。据说当年叶问在香港逝世前，曾给弟子留下口信，以后要继续学习正宗的咏春拳，就到佛山夏教找郭富。足见， 叶问对徒弟郭富是十分推崇的。
（二）、香港教拳
　由于毗邻港澳以及相应的政治经济等因素，佛山武林人士很早就走出国门，到海外谋生。特别是在清末至大革命 失败、抗日战争初期及新中国成立前夕，都有大批武术家出走香港以至世界各地，客观上对佛山武术文化起到了传 播、推广的作用。叶问也是在这样的历史背景下从佛山来到香港。
　1948年11月，叶问为了家计，独赴澳门谋生。1950年初辗转到香港，终因举目无亲，难找职业，幸遇 旧友李民，劝其重新出教武技，暂为解决目前生活。[2]叶问姑且应允，在香港九龙大南街饭店职工总会开设第一个咏春班，不料竟以此成名，之后便在香港设馆授徒，一 直致力于咏春拳的普及与推广。1953年左右在九龙汝洲街三太子庙教拳；1954—1955年，在九龙饭店 职工总会教拳；1955—1957年，在九龙油麻地利达街教拳；1957—1962年，在香港李郑村屋教拳 ；1962—1963年，在香港大埔道61号兴业大厦教徒；1963—1965年，在大角咀福全街大生饭店 教拳，期间还在新蒲岗衍庆街教香港警务人员学拳；1965—1972年，返回通菜街住所，因年事已高，只作 个别教授；1968年咏春体育会成立，该会集授徒、研究、交流咏春拳术于一体，是香港著名的武术组织，叶问 曾在此主持过功夫班。经过20余年的苦心经营，叶氏门下桃李盈门，高徒辈出，著名的弟子有梁相、骆耀、黄淳 樑、徐尚田、招允、卢文锦、梅逸、李小龙、叶准、叶正等，其中功夫巨星李小龙的影响最大。
　叶问教拳从不挂牌，也不卖招生广告，以便拥有选择收徒弟的主动权，只要学者有心学技，他就会全力传授，绝 不厚此薄彼。他十分重视对初学者的基本训练，当传授小念头时，从正确手法、腰马配合到发力运用，从没有时间 限制，只有学者达到他的要求，他才会进一步教授新的课程。叶问教拳的另一特点就是量才而教，他对每一个学者 的心理、个性、身材体魄、知识程度、文化修养以及吸收能力等先作充分了解，再根据每个学者的不同需要，制订 相应的教授方法，以便学者更易学习和吸收。此外，他在教拳过程中极其注重黐手和自由搏击的练习，以培养学者 对咏春拳的兴趣和信心，再引导学者对咏春拳的法度和木人桩的研究。在教拳过程中，叶问还不断吸收力学、几何 等现代科学知识来解释咏春拳的法度，加以融会贯通，成就中华武术之大成。

叶问就像一位使者，对咏春拳的普及和推广做出了杰出的贡献。在他逝世后，门下弟子一致推崇他为咏春拳的一代 宗师，并继承先师遗志，将咏春的种子散播到世界各地。目前，全球有50多个国家和地区设有咏春拳馆，有数百 万人在练习咏春拳，咏春拳成为世界上最流行的拳种之一。咏春拳的历史可谓是起于严咏春、衍于梁赞、盛于叶问 。

三、“叶问堂”是佛山武术文化的历史见证
　佛山是叶问的故乡，也是咏春拳的根之所在。继叶问之后，一代咏春名师在这里崛起，活跃在佛山武坛。为了纪 念叶问宗师，丰富佛山武术文化的内涵，使佛山逐步成为展示中国传统武术的重要窗口，佛山市博物馆于2002 年11月建成“叶问堂”，展示叶问宗师的生平事迹、教拳典范、门下高徒，吸引了大量游客参观，成为海内外咏 春弟子寻根拜祖、探求咏春真谛的重要场所，也为佛山武术旅游文化增添了新亮点，是佛山武术文化 的历史见证。
自2001年佛山“叶问堂”落成以来，叶问徒孙郭思牧师傅（早年跟随叶问之子叶准、叶正学习咏春拳）每年都 会专程率领他的外国弟子回佛山寻根拜祖，一是让外国弟子参观叶问堂，了解咏春拳的历史和叶问宗师的生平；二 是拜祭祖师爷叶问，向外国弟子传授中国“尊师重道”的良好美德；三是在现场与佛山咏春同仁一起表演和交流拳 术，探讨咏春拳的真谛。2008年1月，佛山市博物馆又对“叶问堂”进行扩建，推出《香港叶问宗师咏春拳系 展》，展示香港咏春拳的发展情况。以后，还将陆续推出世界各地叶问宗师咏春拳系展览，让咏春拳一代宗师的精 神永在，为后世门人所敬仰。

参考文献：
[1]佛山市博物馆.佛山祖庙[M].北京：文物出版社，2005：93.
[2]佛山市人民政府侨务办公室[M].广州：广东科技出版社，1990：141.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Leung Jan as recorded by the chinese goverment in Fatshan
http://www.foshanmuseum.com/mrmj/mrm...sub.asp?id=117
Clear mention of Leung Bik

梁赞（约1851-1918），武术名家　
佛山市博物馆网站——名人名家

　　梁赞（约1851-1918）鹤山县人。出生于佛山清正堂街家中。其父在佛山筷子大街市场内开设赞生堂药材店，精通岐黄医术。 丧父后，开始在店中行医，深得病家称道。人们惯称他为“佛山赞先生”。
　　梁少年时便喜爱习武。父亲生时，曾广聘名师传授武功。继承父业后更求深造，得友人梁佳介绍先后礼聘咏春 拳术传人黄华宝及其师弟梁二娣来佛山传技多年。两位前辈深喜梁英年勤奋，认为是可造之材，尽将咏春拳术奥秘 及少林六点半棍法悉心教授。黄华宝辞别之日告知梁赞，谓他本是少林门下弟子，一向遵师遗命少林弟子应以反清 复明为己任。嘱梁既已技成，可在佛山设馆授徒，从中物色人才，为反清复明积聚力量。梁赞遂于清光绪初在赞生 堂内收徒传技，除其子梁璧外，得衣钵真传的有陈华顺、陈桂、梁奇、雷汝济、叶问等。
　　咏春拳术经世代繁衍现在已成为武术界中一大宗派。名人辈出，扬名国内外。近代名家李小龙正是梁赞的徒孙 。

[PalmStriker]

Very informative thread. For those who have an interest in, or practice Wing Chun, or even incorporate these techniques or forms into their own studies, I thank you for the insight into the life and teachings of Yip Man and his lineage.

[Pacman]

If you look at Leung Sheung's WCK - it is so close to Yuen Kay Shan's. A few minor differences, a little tightening of movements, reversing the Huen Sao to inward (a Yip Man signature), but otherwise 90% the same . So is it really that much of a change? I think the Cheung Bo WCK has quite a few clips (the guy was Sum Nung's student before...) on youtube, and you can see the closeness with that and HK Yip Man WCK in the early stages.

even though things look similar, these differences can be important. for example the small differences in sil lim tao changes the meaning of what the movement represents. also the energy and intention behind the movements can be completely different, look at how sum dek performs siu lim tao on youtube vs other people.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Record of Chan Wah Shun battling Wong Fei Hong

http://baike.baidu.com/view/1497683.htm

与黄飞鸿切磋武艺
　　陈国基说，根据家史记载，陈华顺和黄飞鸿切磋武艺，有过精彩的故事。一天，黄飞鸿带著两个徒弟想找赞先 生比武，当时比赛的规矩是首先比桥手。赞先生个子较小，自认为桥手难胜，而黄飞鸿也不认识赞先生，所以赞先 生叫陈华顺代师比武压桥，陈华顺使尽九牛二虎之力才把黄飞鸿桥手压倒，接下来比手法，陈华顺又以内廉穿心掌 、双飞蝴蝶掌打败黄飞鸿的罗汉十八掌之铁闸关门。陈国基一边说故事，一边为记者表演蝴蝶掌，他说用这种掌可 以远距离攻击对手。三个月后，陈华顺又以六点半棍伏黄飞鸿的八卦棍。这次比武之后，黄飞鸿才知道他是陈华顺 ，由此陈华顺声名大振。陈国基说：“这些故事都有详细记载，前辈们切磋武艺，共同提高的精神令 人景仰。”

[Shadow_warrior8]

I was talking about Shunde Wengchun( 顺德永春拳 找錢華 拳術) and the Sets and the book was talking about, the forms
And this 3 forms are found in Shunde Wengchun/Chan Yiu Ming Lineage

Fakuen
Fut Jeung http://www.56.com/u95/v_NDA5MjYwNjg.html
Fok Fu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltGyg5GA1h8
http://www.56.com/u97/v_MTMzMDgwNjI.html
陈华顺（找钱华）传下来的永春十多套拳套之一“伏虎”。

Sharing more on the fist from my hometown, Shunde
http://www.56.com/u91/v_NDU0NjA3MDQ.html
http://www.56.com/u94/v_NDEyNDk5OTU.html
http://www.56.com/u79/v_MjIyNzUwNjg.html
http://www.56.com/u46/v_NDU0NjA4MzU.html

永春拳小念头四门
http://www.56.com/u54/v_MTM4NjI4NTk.html
http://www.56.com/u54/v_NDc3NDYwMjc.html
陈汝棉系永春小练四门 (由顺德谭焕标师父的弟子表演的陈汝棉系永春小练头与四门拳。陈汝棉系永春可以将小练头与四门拳 连在一起来 演示) Sil Lim Tao, and 4 doors

Chum Kil
http://www.56.com/u39/v_MTM4NjMxOTY.html

Sil Lim Tao
http://www.56.com/u82/v_MTM4NjI1MzU.html

找钱华永春拳 wooden dummy set
http://www.56.com/u69/v_NDM5ODc5MTQ.html

Enjoy....

[Shadow_warrior8]

Shaolin Weng Chun aka Shunde Weng Chun aka Chan Yiu Ming Weng Chun

Sets and names.

少林永春拳套路
本門所習內容比較全面，包括拳套，器械，樁法，實戰黏手，運氣發力，手法及身形腰馬的變化等。套路本身沒有 級別高低之分，只有先練習與後練習之分，先練的為後練的打好基礎，後練的要融會貫通到前練的。拳為種棍為師 所以一般以拳套為主導到中級階段就可以練習行者棍法，到了高級階段才能練習長棍法。

初級拳套：

偏身拳：為入門基礎，主要掌握好出拳發力，轉馬鉗力，身腰馬橋的協調性。

小練頭：為永春拳基本手法，小練之意為從小練起一直練到老，可見小練的重要性.通過手法練 習掌握運氣和發力點。

四門：四門與小練頭原屬一套，名為小練尋四門，小練頭為上部不開馬，四門為下半部開馬打四門，四門重點瞭解 外四門和內四門和後面的蝴蝶雙飛走麒麟。

紅砂手：在其他套路抽取三十六點散手而成，為敗馬拳，所謂未學打先學走，是一套邊敗走邊回馬反 擊的套路。

伏虎拳：是一套以攻為主剛柔發勁更加要求腰馬轉身長橋發力，剛中帶柔，拳打八角，是一套場上混 戰的拳術。

中級套路：行者棍，沉橋，樁拳，標指。

高級套路：佛掌，一路花拳，二路花拳，六點半棍。

其他器械有大刀，樸刀，大鈀，蝴蝶雙刀等。

[chusauli]

The above curriculum is remarkably long like Pao Fa Lien and what the Cho family taught. It contains WCK, but I think many Weng Chun elements are Opera Fist elements and not necessarily what we are referring as WCK.

WCK is the essence of the essence. I do see perhaps Leung Jan's Gu Lao/Ku Lou is a simplification of these elements and concentrates on the application, rather than sets.

If I retired and only a few years to live, I'd probably only teach a core of essentials and forget about leaving behind all the forms.

I am glad in Shunde, this is preserved, but more as a time capsule. Modern WCK has still evolved and continues on in the modern world.

[Shadow_warrior8]

The above curriculum is remarkably long like Pao Fa Lien and what the Cho family taught. It contains WCK, but I think many Weng Chun elements are Opera Fist elements and not necessarily what we are referring as WCK.

WCK is the essence of the essence. I do see perhaps Leung Jan's Gu Lao/Ku Lou is a simplification of these elements and concentrates on the application, rather than sets.

If I retired and only a few years to live, I'd probably only teach a core of essentials and forget about leaving behind all the forms.

I am glad in Shunde, this is preserved, but more as a time capsule. Modern WCK has still evolved and continues on in the modern world.

Yes Sifu Robert, alot of the WengChun fist footage looks so much like Shaolin Tao, Sui Da, Fa Kuen. The similarities are uncanny....

Wondering if they had any exchanges in Guangzhou, Fatshan or Shunde.

The fact is that we really interprete the fist as individuals, and then pass it down as our understanding. Whatever the people who learn it do with it, try to do exactly or improve it, depends on the unique ability of the person. Thanks for your input.