Black Bob Punching Dummies

[darkie1973]

Well let me start off by clarifying, first my background is in Tibetan White Crane regarding said techniques, so my understanding of the principles of application may be a bit different than a Choy Li Fut persons,.... since however I was taught in the 'one technique, one thousand applications' school of thought, I'm thinking style shouldn't matter at all.

Yes I do- they work like I said, and I've sparred with them against all sorts of people. However, I'll bet you learned a different way that was the "right" way, and I'd love to hear about it.

I don't believe in the simplistic 'your way is wrong, my way is right' way of thinking,.... but I do believe in solid principles of application. As an example, in your form demonstration of kahp choi, you initiate the technique with a bin choi but seem to totally ignore its relevance application-wise; that bin choi is a limb destruction technique (read: not a pak sau slap that can be circled away from, a striking of the limb to make your opponent think twice about throwing that next jab.) The proper evasive (side stepping/angling) foot work and appropriate range/distancing is also important, which brings me to my second point: perhaps you have been able to use these techniques effectively in these fashions (kudos,.... seriously,) but I must confess to some bit of confusion on my part. You spent the whole video explaining how you have tried to fit these LONG ARM techniques into what you are clearly demonstrating to be SHORT RANGE scenarios. I know that Choy has short range techniques that are designed to be used effectively at that range,.... short pow choi,.... screw all the gung-fu for second,... fade to the outside and short boxers uppercut to the ribs! Sow choi is not the technique to use when your opponent is 'smothering' you.

[Paddleboard]

I don't believe in the simplistic 'your way is wrong, my way is right' way of thinking,.... but I do believe in solid principles of application.

Good for you.

As an example, in your form demonstration of kahp choi, you initiate the technique with a bin choi but seem to totally ignore its relevance application-wise; that bin choi is a limb destruction technique (read: not a pak sau slap that can be circled away from, a striking of the limb to make your opponent think twice about throwing that next jab.)

Can't you circle away from it if you do it as a limb destruction? If you're striking the arm hard enough to make them not want to punch, it seems like it would be easier to clue in on it. Also, by doing a forceful bridging and smashing technique, they will likely have a split second signal where they have an idea of what's coming next (a high line punch is a likely candidate). The main idea though, is that I'm not doing a hard forceful smash to initiate it because that would make it a 1-2 motion, and the way I'm doing it isn't like that- it's a single time punch making use of an empty line and a moment in time where there is a lapse in defense.

The proper evasive (side stepping/angling) foot work and appropriate range/distancing is also important

No disputes there.

You spent the whole video explaining how you have tried to fit these LONG ARM techniques into what you are clearly demonstrating to be SHORT RANGE scenarios.

Triangular footwork can muddy this a bit, since one of the main functions of the triangular footwork is that you can evade an opponent while still positioning yourself to attack. I call it a long arm technique because my elbow is extended more than 90 degrees, and it closely resembles the sow choi I learned in a bunch of choy li fut forms. When done this way, I'm able to really extend my arm, and not have to collapse it to hit the right spot, so it is a long range strike for the fist at least. It makes more sense if you see the view from the top.

I know that Choy has short range techniques that are designed to be used effectively at that range,.... short pow choi,.... screw all the gung-fu for second,... fade to the outside and short boxers uppercut to the ribs! Sow choi is not the technique to use when your opponent is 'smothering' you.

Yeah, I'd agree that sow choi isn't what to do when an opponent is smothering you. However, I was showing it as a jab counter, and someone throwing one jab is hardly smothering me. Shovel hooks are good and can be used the same way, but that was kinda beyond the scope of the video.

[hskwarrior]

i never gave you any thumbs down. i hate having them myself. but good for you for moving on to bigger and better things. im sorry you may have wasted your time there.

but there are a few more ways to launch a big wide swinging strike like the sow choy but thats for another thread.

[Paddleboard]

i never gave you any thumbs down. i hate having them myself. but good for you for moving on to bigger and better things. im sorry you may have wasted your time there.

but there are a few more ways to launch a big wide swinging strike like the sow choy but thats for another thread.

I'm sure there are, but I should point out what my martial arts videos are about: you can find videos of all kinds of kung fu applications, and I don't want to just regurgitate the same old stuff. Not that it's bad; but it's been done and taught better than I would. What I've tried to present is things that are fairly unique and out of the box, and leave the conventions for other people to approach.
I don't consider my time spent at the kung fu school wasted; it did a lot of good things for me, but sometimes it's time to move on when you're not getting what you want out of training. Recently I've been training at a systema place, and its conceptual nature and unorthodox methods have really been keeping my attention.

[hskwarrior]

thats a good thing. we always need to keep learning.

[darkie1973]

Can't you circle away from it if you do it as a limb destruction?

If your throwing a jab, and I've intercepted your attacking arm (ie., matched your technique with my own similar to a boxer matching simultaneous jab for jab,) with a kwa or bin choi, I've just disprupted your entire anatomical frame work,.... you're not gonna be able to circle away from anything because it would require you resetting position and THEN circling away,... the fraction of a second that you would have is not enough time. Even if you initiate the jab with a circling step, the technique will be read by your opponent.

If you're striking the arm hard enough to make them not want to punch, it seems like it would be easier to clue in on it.

Your statement here gives me the impression that you believe that in order to generate enough power to accomplish this, that I would have to 'muscle through', the whipping of the waist along with the accompanying circling/evasive foot work and relaxed arm until impact is the correct way to generate power for this technique. I don't need to tense, and therefore create an unecessary telegraph for my opponent to read in order to generate effective power.

Also, by doing a forceful bridging and smashing technique, they will likely have a split second signal where they have an idea of what's coming next (a high line punch is a likely candidate).

Kwa and bin are not bridging techniques per say,... that is to say, they are NOT utilized as a range finder or to create a sensitivity to my opponents movements by 'linking' up with him. These techniques are more in the vein of "I wouldn't touch you 'cept to hit you." This does however require an understanding of range and timing in order to be effective; an understanding of your opponents position and his weapons in regards to your position. ALSO kwa and bin DON'T have to always precede a high line punch such as sow or kahp; you can come from beneath with pow, from a low to horizontal hook with gok, straight through with chinh or chop. Not knowing which angle the technique is coming from (especially after your center has been disprupted,) means you're probably not dodging a D A M N thing.

The main idea though, is that I'm not doing a hard forceful smash to initiate it because that would make it a 1-2 motion

You demonstrated the kahp choi technique on your video,... that wasn't a 1-2 motion,... that was a single technique, as it should be.

and the way I'm doing it isn't like that- it's a single time punch making use of an empty line and a moment in time where there is a lapse in defense.

YOU demonstrated the bin kahp,... I'M merely pointing out that you are ignoring an integral part of the technique that YOU demonstrated. If you utilize the bin with the kahp, per the form YOU demonstrated, you CREATE a lapse in defense, rather than wait for one. There's an old saying in TCMA,.... 'you defeat the cobra by first destroying his fangs.'

I was showing it as a jab counter, and someone throwing one jab is hardly smothering me.

The jab, as you demonstrated in your video was a conventional boxers jab; One of Choy Li Futs prominent attributes is to increase the range of its attacks/techniques through the extension of the arms/shoulders and the whipping/torque of the waist, which should effectively make you 'out-range' a boxers jab by 8-10". Therefore, if an opponent is close enough to throw a jab, and get anywhere near to your face (at least as a Choy Li Fut fighter,) then you have been smothered,.... in which case, sow and kahp are NOT the techniques for this situation.

[Paddleboard]

Your statement here gives me the impression that you believe that in order to generate enough power to accomplish this, that I would have to 'muscle through', the whipping of the waist along with the accompanying circling/evasive foot work and relaxed arm until impact is the correct way to generate power for this technique. I don't need to tense, and therefore create an unecessary telegraph for my opponent to read in order to generate effective power.

I know you don't need to tense to attack with kwa.

Kwa and bin are not bridging techniques per say,... that is to say, they are NOT utilized as a range finder or to create a sensitivity to my opponents movements by 'linking' up with him. These techniques are more in the vein of "I wouldn't touch you 'cept to hit you." This does however require an understanding of range and timing in order to be effective; an understanding of your opponents position and his weapons in regards to your position. ALSO kwa and bin DON'T have to always precede a high line punch such as sow or kahp; you can come from beneath with pow, from a low to horizontal hook with gok, straight through with chinh or chop. Not knowing which angle the technique is coming from (especially after your center has been disprupted,) means you're probably not dodging a D A M N thing.

Do you do kwa off the rear hand?

YOU demonstrated the bin kahp,... I'M merely pointing out that you are ignoring an integral part of the technique that YOU demonstrated. If you utilize the bin with the kahp, per the form YOU demonstrated, you CREATE a lapse in defense, rather than wait for one. There's an old saying in TCMA,.... 'you defeat the cobra by first destroying his fangs.'

I've always read that phrase regarding the Filipino arts. What I demonstrated was using the rear hand to feel out their lead hand and keep it ready to redirect or defend against attack. I don't know what "bin" actually is, maybe I know it as something else, but what I was doing was not like a gwa-kup combination. As far as creating an opening instead of waiting for one- systema has been teaching me that you often don't have to create openings- there's always something open, and when you play with a good practitioner, it is a lot more frustrating and soul crushing when your partner doesn't bother creating openings and just hits you somewhere unexpected whenever you try to do anything (this was also the key behind a 30-year kempo practitioner that I got to spar with).

The jab, as you demonstrated in your video was a conventional boxers jab; One of Choy Li Futs prominent attributes is to increase the range of its attacks/techniques through the extension of the arms/shoulders and the whipping/torque of the waist, which should effectively make you 'out-range' a boxers jab by 8-10". Therefore, if an opponent is close enough to throw a jab, and get anywhere near to your face (at least as a Choy Li Fut fighter,) then you have been smothered,.... in which case, sow and kahp are NOT the techniques for this situation.

I no longer use the full body extension as done in the forms. It turns out that there's some advantages to shortening things up, and this is made use of in systema and Okinawan karate. Not better or worse, but different.

[darkie1973]

Do you do kwa off the rear hand?

In your video, I quote "kahp choi is a strike that looks like this,... it's the right hand that hits,.... BUT USUALLY IT'S THE LEFT HAND WILL DOES SOMETHING FIRST." That left hand is kwa, (or bin it the backfist travels more horizontally than vertically),.... watch your video again,.... then time how long it takes for the kahp to reach the target from the point at which the left hand has crashed through the jab. And just to clarify,.... my kwa is of the lead hand, preceding the kahp,... just as you did in your form demo. Openings arise in that space between a defensive stance and an attack,... the jab an opponent initiates is that space,... for the kwa AND the kahp are BOTH attacks. Good luck with your systema training (Systema looks awesome,.... I wish I had the opportunity to train in it,) but as you said,.... you spent a decade do Choy,... I just think it would be a shame for you to not exploit it to it's fullest in order to increase your effectiveness.

[hskwarrior]

Kwa Choy off the rear hand is in my lineage. always preceded by something...no biggie on what it is, as long as something precedes it.

[Paddleboard]

In your video, I quote "kahp choi is a strike that looks like this,... it's the right hand that hits,.... BUT USUALLY IT'S THE LEFT HAND WILL DOES SOMETHING FIRST." That left hand is kwa, (or bin it the backfist travels more horizontally than vertically),.... watch your video again,.... then time how long it takes for the kahp to reach the target from the point at which the left hand has crashed through the jab. And just to clarify,.... my kwa is of the lead hand, preceding the kahp,... just as you did in your form demo.

To clarify, I was using the front arm offline sow choi as the opening strike, rather than a downward/outward motion like kwa (or bin apparently). I think this variation is more well suited for a more square stance with both hands up since it's hard to do a good kwa without any windup from that position (and I prefer a more orthodox hands up body somewhat squared stance). A variation I also like is to throw the left so that it strikes downward against the body if they're expecting it to hit their face, and the intention is to bow the back towards an imaginary triangle point behind them (I didn't show this variation, and it takes some specific body mechanics to deliver the power correctly). Striking the face or body will clear a path for the sow choi, as will using kwa or bin, but I prefer the former because of my stance preference.

Openings arise in that space between a defensive stance and an attack,... the jab an opponent initiates is that space,... for the kwa AND the kahp are BOTH attacks. Good luck with your systema training (Systema looks awesome,.... I wish I had the opportunity to train in it,) but as you said,.... you spent a decade do Choy,... I just think it would be a shame for you to not exploit it to it's fullest in order to increase your effectiveness.

Thanks, systema has been fun (and painful) and I recommend trying it out if you get the chance. It's unlike anything else I've seen. There's elements of choy li fut that I'm keeping and others that I'm letting shrivel up. I work on my heavy bags and other training equipment, and spar with a diverse group of people. If it turns into something that doesn't look like choy li fut, that's fine with me. I don't call it that.

[darkie1973]

Kwa Choy off the rear hand is in my lineage. always preceded by something...no biggie on what it is, as long as something precedes it.

Does the kwa precede the kahp in your lineage of choy,.... like he demonstrated in the video?

[hskwarrior]

it can. or even a chin na type grab/or the sinking block and grab then the Kwa Choy. but kwa sow is a very basic 2 strike combination in all of CLF

but in the Lau Bun lineage we also use a Kwa Choy with the lead then followed by the rear hand Kwa Choy.

[Paddleboard]

but in the Lau Bun lineage we also use a Kwa Choy with the lead then followed by the rear hand Kwa Choy.

I studied a Lau Bun lineage and we did this one. I liked it for breaking stuff on odd occasions, or use the first gwa to draw a block, then strike their arm with the second.

[hskwarrior]

right. inside or outiside the first Kwa is strike limbs then the following Kwa Choy to the face. but we have other usages for that as well.