Another look at Wing Chun History/Mystery

[Hendrik]

hahaha, who cares? I dont.

hendrik, you can't back up your rediculous claim such as 'wing chun came from o-mei and crane.' most people know this fact, dai dung fung, yim wing chun, wong wah bo and leung yee tai and others all came before yik kam, so, from where and who and how could you replace yik kam story to the real history of wing chun coiming from dai dung fung and william cheung?

Yim Wing Chun:
SNT, CK, BJ

Dai Dung Fung:
SNT, CK, BJ

Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun:
SNT, CK, BJ

Wong Wah Bo
SNT, CK, BJ

Leung Yee Tai:
SNT, CK, BJ

Leung Jan:
SNT, CK, BJ (foshan version)
Ching San San Sau (guloo version)
Pin San San Sau (guloo version)

Yik Kam:
SLT (incomplete wc + o-mei + crane)

Bruce Lee:
JKD (ip man wc + mma)

why did yik kam go out to search other arts in order to fill in the missing pieces of his wing chun?
where and who did yik kam learn his o-mei from?
where and who did yik kam learn his crane from?
where and who did yik kam learn his snake from?

hendrik, i'm stilling waiting for your answers.

[Eric_H]

I share with the world what I have found and what could be the result. As who likes it who dont who love it who against it that is fine with me, That is not my concern from the Cracking technology code stand point. It doesnt matter.

Dude, the only thing cracked is what you're smoking. You've yet to answer any questions or make a good point.

Simply put nobody should care what you've "figured out" because you have nothing to share. Have you ever even applied your WC to a resisting opponent?

Maybe I'll give you a call if I ever have a problem with people gently pushing on me

[RB93SAAT]

Hey Hendrik,

-William Cheung says in his Siu Nim Tao book that Yip Man's WC is descended from the Shaolin temple.
-Pan Nam considered WC to be a mixture of shaolin and wudang arts.
-Pao Fa Lien is supposedly descended from the Shaolin temple.
-Richard Lowenhagen, a wing chun researcher who has written a number of articles and a book on Wing Chun says it is descended from the Shaolin temple.
-The Vietnamese branches of WC all claim to be a shaolin descendant.
-The VTM has written articles that Wing Chun comes from Shaolin.
-Ng Mui - by legend was supposedly a Shaolin monk/priestess.

From all "Legitimate" WC we can see that there is a Shaolin tie-in. Then there's the fact that WC has:

- Butterfly swords - a notably Shaolin weapon
- Wooden Dummy, a common feature of Shaolin descended martial arts
- Ties to Buddhism, a common hallmark of Shaolin descended martial arts.

That's straight up evidence. How come all the other branches don't use o-mei exercises except for Yik Kam? How come Yik Kam only called his art Siu Lin Tao and not WCK?

Yik Kam's kung fu stands on its own (for Yik Kam only) as WCK basics + outside influences. It's what worked for him (likely because of his small size/weaker frame) but it is largely outside the "WCK curriculum" (T's term).

Is this horse dead yet, or do you still feel the need to hit it more?

yik kum never claimed his own slt as wing chun, bruce lee also never called his jkd as wing chun. both yik kum and bruce lee were creators of their arts. it's all about hendrik's fantasy, it's really got nothing to do with yik kum at all. as a matter of fact, hendrik wants benny meng to vouch his o-mei and crane story badly, but according to taokum's report benny meng never trusted hendrik's false claims so far.

All this evidence on Omei doesn’t make sense to Santos his-story so he (Hendrik) is looking for shelter under Benny Meng. Looking to VTM to vouch his(Hendrik's) Omei opinion. I think Benny Meng is only interested in promoting 5 flag wing chun but even Benny Meng is having difficulty to vouch himself in the true martial arts community. 5 flag wing chun never exist in history. The real 5 flags society is well document as bandits.

[KPM]

why did yik kam go out to search other arts in order to fill in the missing pieces of his wing chun?
where and who did yik kam learn his o-mei from?
where and who did yik kam learn his crane from?
where and who did yik kam learn his snake from?

hendrik, i'm stilling waiting for your answers.

You are really coming across as VERY DENSE!!! Did you miss this response to this when you posted it last time?

"Wow! You guys seem really dense! How many times does one have to state something in a single thread before it seeks in? Hendrik never said that Yik Kam WCK was the original ancestoral WCK! Yik Kam didn't learn o-mei, crane, or snake. He learned WCK! The theory is that the WCK he learned had been heavily influenced by, if not derived from, those other arts. Those elements were then assembled, combined, and used in a new way to become WCK. WCK did not spring forth from a vacuum! Its developers were all experienced martial artists. Who those original developers were is not clear. The theory is simply looking at what the likely foundational methods may have been."

And did you miss Hendrik's post when he agreed with what I said?

"Yup. That is correct. and knowing those foundatonal methods could benifit us greatly to know what result is possible while practicing it especially while doing the sets."

Hendrik and I gave you an answer! Maybe you should actually READ the thread if you are going to participate in it!

[KPM]

Hey Eric! I'm not Hendrik, but here is my 2 cents:


-William Cheung says in his Siu Nim Tao book that Yip Man's WC is descended from the Shaolin temple.
-Pao Fa Lien is supposedly descended from the Shaolin temple.
-Richard Lowenhagen, a wing chun researcher who has written a number of articles and a book on Wing Chun says it is descended from the Shaolin temple.
-The Vietnamese branches of WC all claim to be a shaolin descendant.
-The VTM has written articles that Wing Chun comes from Shaolin.

----Sure. That's part of the legend. But most of these sources would also pass on the origination myth stating that WCK developed after the founder saw a battle between and snake and a crane. So the Shaolin connection does not negate the idea that crane and snake may have been foundational arts. Doesn't Shaolin historically also do a version of crane and snake?


-Pan Nam considered WC to be a mixture of shaolin and wudang arts.

----That's because Pan Nam himself added these elements into his WCK!


-Ng Mui - by legend was supposedly a Shaolin monk/priestess.

----Sure. Wasn't Ng Mui supposed to be a Crane master? Wasn't Crane one of the Shaolin arts? But the myth states that Ng Mui developed WCK independent of the Shaolin Temple....not within its walls. So in the legends, Ng Mui represents a link to Shaolin, but that doesn't make WCK a "Shaolin art" itself.


From all "Legitimate" WC we can see that there is a Shaolin tie-in. Then there's the fact that WC has:

---A Shaolin tie-in is suggested by the legends. I have no problem acknowledging that. But to what extent was this Shaolin tie-in? We don't really know. The legends also suggest that crane and snake styles were foundational arts for the development of WCK. Why is that so hard to accept? Both are just theories.


- Butterfly swords - a notably Shaolin weapon
- Wooden Dummy, a common feature of Shaolin descended martial arts
- Ties to Buddhism, a common hallmark of Shaolin descended martial arts.

----I'll echo an argument used earlier in this thread....all of these things are found pretty commonly in Southern Chinese Martial Arts. Maybe the Dummy takes a different form from WCK's dummy, but other southern arts use some form of a dummy as well. So if the naysayers would discount very similar techniques and structure between Yong Shun White Crane and WCK as evidence because these similarities are supposedly in all southern arts, the same would have to be said for your evidence above.


That's straight up evidence.

---Not any more "straight up" than the evidence I have provided.


How come all the other branches don't use o-mei exercises except for Yik Kam?

---Hendrik has already pointed out o-mei elements in Ku Lo WCK....did you miss that? And if I recall, that same feature is part of Yuen Kay Shan WCK.



Is this horse dead yet, or do you still feel the need to hit it more?

---No. Its not dead if you think you have somehow disproven the basic theory that WCK evolved from foundational arts that may have been some form of Crane and Snake.

[KPM]

yik kum never claimed his own slt as wing chun, bruce lee also never called his jkd as wing chun. both yik kum and bruce lee were creators of their arts.

---Before JKD was fully developed, Bruce Lee initially taught "Jun Fan Gung Fu" which is widely acknowledged as his own version of a "modified" Wing Chun. So, using your own analogy.....if Bruce Lee can do a version of WCK and call it "Jun Fan Gung Fu" why couldn't Yik Kam do a version of WCK and call it SLT?

[Hendrik]

---Before JKD was fully developed, Bruce Lee initially taught "Jun Fan Gung Fu" which is widely acknowledged as his own version of a "modified" Wing Chun. So, using your own analogy.....if Bruce Lee can do a version of WCK and call it "Jun Fan Gung Fu" why couldn't Yik Kam do a version of WCK and call it SLT?

The story of Siu Lien Tau and Wing Chun according to the Cho family tradition is that

Before Miu Shun passed away, Miu Shun told his student Yim ( Yim WC's father).
The art Miu Shun had taught Yim is not White Crane but His own creation fusing White Crane with his own art. and Miu name it as Siu Lin Tau or the essential training of the small details.

Wing Chun kuen is a named give to an art which is using the Siu Lin Tau art , which was taught to the Red boat opera, as a core but evolve and create in the Red boat by the Red boat opera people.


So, Siu Lin Tau is not Wing Chun kuen but a core art prio to WCK development.



Beside the some kuen kuit's similarity with the Emei 12 Zhuang, the name Siu Lin Tau also reveal the likely hood of Emei 12 Zhuang is one of the mother platform which was used by Miu Shun to create Siu Lin Tau although Miu Shun doesnt mention his art.

In Emei 12 Zhuang or Emei's 12 path in cultivation, there is a set call Siu Tze Zhuang or the Small letter path.

This small letter path is to cultivate Details and fast issue Jin.

the first half of this set is shown in the clip above where Russell demostrated Russell has got this set verify by the gate keeper of the emei 12 zhuang.


With the signature of this small letter path set ----- the similarity of movement as in WCK sup yee sau part of SLT ....., the details handling ( such as in WCK needed to be every detail point to be clear and clean or dim dim cheng) , the fast jin or chuck Keng or short jin. It is extremely likely, the name Siu lin tau is in fact the derivation from the name Siu Tze Zhuang as both focus on the details and have similar type of movements.



So, the creation of WCK is likely to be


Miu Shun created Siu Lien Tau (an art , not a set but might include the long form set)
the art got taught by Yim WC to the red boat (according to Yik Kam)
Siu lien Tau evolve in the Red Boat where southern TCMA were add in such as the pole...etc and become Wing Chun Kuen

Wing Chun split out where WWB/LJ and others of the first generation student of Yim WC continous of evolving the art. However, the core such as the White crane and Emei snake components are still in tag as in the Koo Lo or YKS case.



So, rationally, from the similarity across different older WCK lineages: the moments (move, function, and purpose) , the Jin type, the kuen kuit such as recorded in the Yik Kam SLT kuit, the naming there are too many details which are pointing at Emei 12 Zhuang as one of the mother art of WCK's core. it cant be accidental because the chances of accidental of similarity in many different ares is extremely not likely. Such as a person has the same last name, living in the same area of location, driving the same type of car, working in the same company. what is the chance of that is not a person from the same family?



Thus, IMHO, no matter what is the story or the his-story, one cant avoid the white crane and Emei snake connection. and the Emei snake theory path goes as far as be able to explain why the name Siu Lin Tau is called Siu Lin Tau and where is it likely to be from. Thus, the Emei path cannot be an accident or later add in.






Now if one look at Weng Chun Kuen, Weng Chun or eternal spring which exist in the Red Boat in the same time with Wing Chun but it doesnt have the Siu Lin Tau core and other above characteristics similar to Wing Chun Kuen.

take a look an observe the Sup Yat Sau and other set such as Peng Kuen...etc, those are more closer to CLF and Hung gar on the handling and technics. So this is a different type of art compare with the Siu Lin Tau Core Wing Chun kuen.

Certainly, Weng Chun might evolve with the component of WCK but still the core is not Siu Lin tau type as in their set.






Thus, if one wants to know how the Original WCK looks like in 1850, that got to be more closer to Koo Loo and YKS, not even general Cho family or Yik Kam art today, that is the reality.

The now a days, so called Shao Lin Wing Chun Kuen, IMHO, from the above comparison is an evolution not an original, that is because it has distance itself from the Original WCK, Take a look at TWC, HFY, some Cho family WCK, or even the new HKM WCK.

It has evolved away from the Sup Jee Sau type of "soft" core elements and narrower stances-- those "trade mark" of WCK, and become either more Southern TCMA or White Crane or Ngo Cho based.



BTW. I disagree with VTM decades ago on their WCK report; because IMHO VTM is taken a path of Romancing the Tien Tee Hui and Shao Lin myth ;instead of investigating the signature of the WCK. Now it is a good thing that they accepted the White Crane from the Fujian as a root of WCK.

VTM should have notice and track down where the center line principle of WCK from and get to white crane in no time instead of spending 10 years,

Also, VTM should have investigate the Sup Jee Sau or Koo Loo emei snake signature of WCK and arrive at Emei or other TCMA if they exist; instead of promoting HKB which doesnt have the 1850 WCK signature ;but 1880 Ngo Cho signature beside the White Crane signature.

my prediction is VTM cant get away from Emei 12 zhuang investigation direction because one cant explain why Koo Loo and YKS the older generation which preserve 1850 WCK has those elements.



Sure, saying the above will never win popularity contest and very likely to rise attack from many toward me, however, Facts are Facts. I choose to be honestly report the evaluation instead of let the future generation or the expert in other TCMA to called WCner "Blind" and lying.

For WCner, IMHO, it is better to face all the facts one time and settle it all, other wise when one create one lie to cover another lie there is no end to the struggling ;and finally disregard of how many lie one created one still has to face the fact; because one knows in one's heart what the truth is even one can deny it for different reason in the surface. I said the above not standing in the Yik Kam WCK or any other lineage's position but a general WCner as everyone else equal position.


just some thoughts.

[Eric_H]

---Before JKD was fully developed, Bruce Lee initially taught "Jun Fan Gung Fu" which is widely acknowledged as his own version of a "modified" Wing Chun. So, using your own analogy.....if Bruce Lee can do a version of WCK and call it "Jun Fan Gung Fu" why couldn't Yik Kam do a version of WCK and call it SLT?

Keith,

That's the whole point.

Jun Fan Gung Fu != Wing Chun
Yik Kam Slt != Wing Chun

Both arts were influenced by WC, but in the end they are what they are, Jung Fan (later JKD) or Yik Kam SLT.

[Eric_H]

Doesn't Shaolin historically also do a version of crane and snake?

There's legend about it in many different kung fu systems, not just WCK. Heck Ng Mui appears in various lineages too - not just WCK. That's why using her to try to prove snake and crane anything is pretty suspect.

----I'll echo an argument used earlier in this thread....all of these things are found pretty commonly in Southern Chinese Martial Arts. Maybe the Dummy takes a different form from WCK's dummy, but other southern arts use some form of a dummy as well. So if the naysayers would discount very similar techniques and structure between Yong Shun White Crane and WCK as evidence because these similarities are supposedly in all southern arts, the same would have to be said for your evidence above.

Actually, they appear in southern shaolin descended arts specifically. Not just all southern arts.

---Hendrik has already pointed out o-mei elements in Ku Lo WCK....did you miss that? And if I recall, that same feature is part of Yuen Kay Shan WCK.

You have obviously missed where Terrence discussed how it's likely just from being functional body structure that they do things similarly. And I agree with him - which you also seem to have missed.

As far as I know neither YKS or any of the Gu Lo versions use o-mei exercises or specific snake and crane methodology. Only Yik Kam who admittedly studied omei + crane outside of his WCK.

[KPM]

Keith,

That's the whole point.

Jun Fan Gung Fu != Wing Chun
Yik Kam Slt != Wing Chun

Both arts were influenced by WC, but in the end they are what they are, Jung Fan (later JKD) or Yik Kam SLT.

No, that's not the point. What I was showing is that if Bruce Lee can do what everyone acknowledges as a modified version of Wing Chun (but STILL Wing Chun) and yet call it something different.....why couldn't Yik Kam have done a modified version of Wing Chun (but STILL Wing Chun) and call it something different as well?
Jun Fan Gung Fu is widely acknowledged as a version of WCK, even though it wasn't called "Wing Chun" by Bruce Lee. And Jun Fan Gung Fu is NOT Jeet Kune Do!

[Hendrik]

You have obviously missed where Terrence discussed how it's likely just from being functional body structure that they do things similarly. And I agree with him - which you also seem to have missed.

As far as I know neither YKS or any of the Gu Lo versions use o-mei exercises or specific snake and crane methodology. Only Yik Kam who admittedly studied omei + crane outside of his WCK.

Sure,
it is just from being functional body structure, every one make a fist via wrapping starting with their pinky in sequence, the whole word is doing it that way, you believe that? hahaha


BTW, Yik Kam doesnt ever mention he studied Emei, so you got that from day dreaming?


what you are facing is not Yik Kam but the older WCK lineages have those Emei signatures even if Yik Kam doesnt exist. and WCK still has explain where are those practices are from?



On the other hand, since VTM called it a Hung Gan Biu WCK created by Hung Gan Biu, if you cant prove Hung Gan Biu exist and trace able, Hung Gan Biu WCK doesnt have the signature of WCK which is preserved in YKS and Koo LOO, then is Hung Gan Biu WCK legitimate WCK? Who create it?

[KPM]

There's legend about it in many different kung fu systems, not just WCK. Heck Ng Mui appears in various lineages too - not just WCK. That's why using her to try to prove snake and crane anything is pretty suspect.

---I didn't use her to try and prove anything. You outlined the Shaolin origin theory and noted her as a key character. I only proposed that she represented some kind of Shaolin connection in the origination myth. That doesn't even require her to be a real person. She could simply be the metaphor for some kind of connection to Shaolin.



Actually, they appear in southern shaolin descended arts specifically. Not just all southern arts.

---And again....."Shaolin descended" is often a mythological story and hard to prove. I'll bet its not as "specific" as you think!



You have obviously missed where Terrence discussed how it's likely just from being functional body structure that they do things similarly. And I agree with him - which you also seem to have missed.

---No, I didn't miss that. I'm simply pointing out that you stated that these elements were ONLY found in Yik Kam WCK, while Hendrik has pointed out that they exist in other versions of WCK. That has nothing to do with the idea that they may have developed independently, only that they ARE there!

Only Yik Kam who admittedly studied omei + crane outside of his WCK.

---Good grief Eric! Do I need to say this a THIRD time!!!!


"Wow! You guys seem really dense! How many times does one have to state something in a single thread before it seeks in? Hendrik never said that Yik Kam WCK was the original ancestoral WCK! Yik Kam didn't learn o-mei, crane, or snake. He learned WCK! The theory is that the WCK he learned had been heavily influenced by, if not derived from, those other arts. Those elements were then assembled, combined, and used in a new way to become WCK. WCK did not spring forth from a vacuum! Its developers were all experienced martial artists. Who those original developers were is not clear. The theory is simply looking at what the likely foundational methods may have been."





--No one has "admitted" that Yik Kam studied omei and crane outside of his WCK. You guys have all assumed that in your attacks on Hendrik!

[Hendrik]

No, that's not the point. What I was showing is that if Bruce Lee can do what everyone acknowledges as a modified version of Wing Chun (but STILL Wing Chun) and yet call it something different.....why couldn't Yik Kam have done a modified version of Wing Chun (but STILL Wing Chun) and call it something different as well?
Jun Fan Gung Fu is widely acknowledged as a version of WCK, even though it wasn't called "Wing Chun" by Bruce Lee.

Bruce Lee and Yik Kam both existed in WCK and are legitimate WCner, one is the student of GM Ip Man, one is the school brother of WWB.

How about Hung Gan Biu ? Who is Hung Gan Biu? Why is Hung Gan Biu WCK doesnt have the older WCK signature such as in YKS and Koo Lo ? is Hung Gan Biu WCK is WCK? at least HKB WCK has the White Crane part ;but no white crane for the HGB WCK.
Could Some one enlightent us on what is the posibilies?

Those are the questions but some choose to ignore it. IMHO.

[Hendrik]

Since Sergio is in China doing reseach on WCK, I suggest he might want to do one about Sup Jee Sau type of movements, which lineage has it and which doesnt.

also how many lineage making fist via wrapping the fingers starting with the pinky in sequence. What is the reason behind the wrapping.


Those are great signatures to explore into and some thing might comes up. That will be very interesting.


Round two for WCK reserach ----- Go down to the details of handling fingers joints level.

[t_niehoff]

There's legend about it in many different kung fu systems, not just WCK. Heck Ng Mui appears in various lineages too - not just WCK. That's why using her to try to prove snake and crane anything is pretty suspect.

---I didn't use her to try and prove anything. You outlined the Shaolin origin theory and noted her as a key character. I only proposed that she represented some kind of Shaolin connection in the origination myth. That doesn't even require her to be a real person. She could simply be the metaphor for some kind of connection to Shaolin.

Exactly.

IME a lot of Chinese "history" -- and even stories from the various lineages -- was never meant to be taken literally (as a fact), including the whole Shaolin-story. For example, I was watching a program on Buddhism recently and a Buddhist scholar was asked about whether "the Buddha" really existed. His reply was that it didn't matter, that what mattered was the teachings.

We should never assume some "history" is true until it is proved. But often the facts themselves aren't important.

Actually, they appear in southern shaolin descended arts specifically. Not just all southern arts.

---And again....."Shaolin descended" is often a mythological story and hard to prove. I'll bet its not as "specific" as you think!

So, what we have is a southern fist legend that links to a southern Shaolin temple. Sort of like rooting for the home team?

You have obviously missed where Terrence discussed how it's likely just from being functional body structure that they do things similarly. And I agree with him - which you also seem to have missed.

---No, I didn't miss that. I'm simply pointing out that you stated that these elements were ONLY found in Yik Kam WCK, while Hendrik has pointed out that they exist in other versions of WCK. That has nothing to do with the idea that they may have developed independently, only that they ARE there!

If you appreciate that body mechanics are task specific (which they are), then you should expect to find similar/same mechanics whenever you have similar tasks. And so you would expect to find the same/similar mechanics across WCK.

Only Yik Kam who admittedly studied omei + crane outside of his WCK.

---Good grief Eric! Do I need to say this a THIRD time!!!!


"Wow! You guys seem really dense! How many times does one have to state something in a single thread before it seeks in? Hendrik never said that Yik Kam WCK was the original ancestoral WCK! Yik Kam didn't learn o-mei, crane, or snake. He learned WCK! The theory is that the WCK he learned had been heavily influenced by, if not derived from, those other arts. Those elements were then assembled, combined, and used in a new way to become WCK. WCK did not spring forth from a vacuum! Its developers were all experienced martial artists. Who those original developers were is not clear. The theory is simply looking at what the likely foundational methods may have been."

Clear enough.

--No one has "admitted" that Yik Kam studied omei and crane outside of his WCK. You guys have all assumed that in your attacks on Hendrik!

To be fair, Hendrik has not always been clear.