Another look at Wing Chun History/Mystery

[Hendrik]

And my last attempt to have another look at our Wing Chun history...

Check out this blog (if you haven't seen it already!) that an old friend recently informed me about and let me know if you see something interesting coming out of Kuala Lumpur!

http://yipkinwingchun.blogspot.com/

interesting discussion on YipkinWCK.

http://mengsmartialarts.com/forum/in...ic,1044.0.html

[LoneTiger108]

Doh! Why did I say that I had finished posting here?? Just can't help myself...

1, I agree with KMP about Lee Shing pole.


The Wing Chun Kuen pole, in the past is said to be link with the lost ancient Southern Shao lin's thirteen spear fishing pole set.

Instead of Hung Gar.

I have heard similar stories Hendrik and can't see why this 'lost form' wouldn't have been known by the forefathers of Hung Gar like Jee Shim. Don't forget that Luk Ah Choy was not a Hung Gar man as such as Hung Hei Goon hadn't 'created' it yet.

FWIW I was taught a 'fisherman' pole method too, but I'm thinking I shouldn't have said that!

In fact, Chu Gar in Penang Malaysia also has a set name 6.5 pole set if my memory is correct.

So 6.5 in not unique to WCK.

That would be interesting to see imho.

2, If one investigate into Lee Shing WCK such as Austin Goh's practice below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ICdVvU4WhE

This is also an evolution of WCK, it cant be the older form, the reason is the heavy breathing and making the sound. Those are not nature for WCK.

Take a look at the older WCK lineage, no one makes sounds and heavy breathing. This breathing is telling the practitioner's breathing is keep at the upper chest level forcefully; instead of sinking to the lower abs naturally (which is one of the reason why one tuck in the tail bone in YJKYM while doing SLT.)

This type of practice might be mimic-ing the Iron wire of Hung Gar which making different kind of sound trying to influence the internal organs. However, this type of Iron wire is also not Internal stuffs but hard Qigong related. Check the history of the Iron Bridge Three or the creator of the set and see for yourself what happen, is the creator of the set an internal practitioner or not.

Also,
Test it out for yourself on the breathing , make the same type of breathing as in the clip and see where is that type of breathing leading to.

How many times do I have to repeat myself? I am not a student of Austin Goh and did not learn my SLT in this way, with hei gung concentration like that. I did learn a heigung method of the form though, but it is different and more subtle.

I feel that Uncle Austin has his own untold history learning from Lee Shing personally and he is the best person to tell you how and why he made this promotional clip. He teaches 5 element heigung nowadays and I don't know if he teaches anyone like that clip, or if he has even taught anyone in that way either. What I do know is that he does claim to now use his heigung skill for healing purposes and he is getting very well known for his success.

Lee Shing had many, many students and to use Austin as a measuring tool for Lee Shing Wing Chun is just silly. What Austin does is Austin Goh Wing Chun. It's his own and he would (probably) say the same to you himself! He too has learnt from many masters, especially in Malaysia which is where he is from. To know Lee Shing Wing Chun is to know Lee Shing and all I can offer is the knowledge and stories my Sifu shared with me. What LSWC actually 'was' is anyones guess, just like what Yik Kam WCK was or Ip Man WCK was.

I only share what my Wing Chun is now, and what I feel may have influenced past generations. Nothing can be written in stone imho, so I also agree that more serious research is needed.

[LoneTiger108]

interesting discussion on YipkinWCK.

http://mengsmartialarts.com/forum/in...ic,1044.0.html

I will have to look at this at home as I'm just leaving work...

It's been a good day for discussion

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1071109]Doh! Why did I say that I had finished posting here?? Just can't help myself...



I have heard similar stories Hendrik and can't see why this 'lost form' wouldn't have been known by the forefathers of Hung Gar like Jee Shim. Don't forget that Luk Ah Choy was not a Hung Gar man as such as Hung Hei Goon hadn't 'created' it yet.

FWIW I was taught a 'fisherman' pole method too, but I'm thinking I shouldn't have said that!



That would be interesting to see imho.


WCK pole is related to Southern Shao Lin that is forsure.

How many times do I have to repeat myself? I am not a student of Austin Goh and did not learn my SLT in this way, with hei gung concentration like that. I did learn a heigung method of the form though, but it is different and more subtle.

I feel that Uncle Austin has his own untold history learning from Lee Shing personally and he is the best person to tell you how and why he made this promotional clip. He teaches 5 element heigung nowadays and I don't know if he teaches anyone like that clip, or if he has even taught anyone in that way either. What I do know is that he does claim to now use his heigung skill for healing purposes and he is getting very well known for his success.

Lee Shing had many, many students and to use Austin as a measuring tool for Lee Shing Wing Chun is just silly. What Austin does is Austin Goh Wing Chun. It's his own and he would (probably) say the same to you himself! He too has learnt from many masters, especially in Malaysia which is where he is from. To know Lee Shing Wing Chun is to know Lee Shing and all I can offer is the knowledge and stories my Sifu shared with me. What LSWC actually 'was' is anyones guess, just like what Yik Kam WCK was or Ip Man WCK was.

I only share what my Wing Chun is now, and what I feel may have influenced past generations. Nothing can be written in stone imho, so I also agree that more serious research is needed.

There is nothing wrong with what Austin Does. WCK always evolve.


You as an insider, what is a good representative of Lee Shing WCK? so we could take a look and understand it. recomend to us, we are not insider, we dont know.

[LoneTiger108]

There is nothing wrong with what Austin Does. WCK always evolve.

Okay, I'm not implying that there is at all either. But you must understand how pidgeon holed it makes you feel when the only point of reference people use for Lee Shings teaching is Austin Goh, when he was one of his youngest students who went out to teach at the earliest in his training.

You as an insider, what is a good representative of Lee Shing WCK? so we could take a look and understand it. recomend to us, we are not insider, we dont know.

That is a difficult question Hendrik. Maybe you need to look over all my posts over the past 3 years to see what I've been rambling on about! I do know that Lee Shing Family WCK has it's own salutation, heigung methods, varied pole and weaponry methods unseen outside our family, a concentration on side body sansau and looksau training, and of course personally I have also been taught from literature (kuit), line by line, which isn't common in my Uncles teachings either. Neither Joseph Cheng, Joe Lee nor Austin Goh. That in itself has caused a little interest in my own martial cousins too, and I'm happy to be in touch with many of them these days!

What my opinions reflect are that of my own learning, and my Sifu is still a mystery to me! He taught me that everyone is individual and that he was still studying and piecing things together himself, and he's a native of the New Territories in HK so what chance has a little gweilo got with all this stuff?!

I will say this though. Lee Shing NEVER charged his students any fees. He was not a 'commercial' instructor making a living off Ip Mans name and his methods obviously had influences from Wing Chun people aside from Ip Man too (mainly Jiu Wan and Lok Yiu)

And so in conclusion, my knowledge of Lee Shing himself has very far to go in terms of research. And even though some students are in contact with his wife and children/grandchildren, it is still hard to collect any hard facts as they too were kept in the dark about his background and Martial Art history! He was a VERY private gentleman, but I guess that's why there are many Wing Chun students out there today who still haven't heard of him at all.

This was why I started to post here years ago, and at least now you guys can say you have heard 'something' about Lee Shing! If only from that little gweilo crazy kid

[Hendrik]

Okay, I'm not implying that there is at all either. But you must understand how pidgeon holed it makes you feel when the only point of reference people use for Lee Shings teaching is Austin Goh, when he was one of his youngest students who went out to teach at the earliest in his training.

Ok.

That is a difficult question Hendrik. Maybe you need to look over all my posts over the past 3 years to see what I've been rambling on about! I do know that Lee Shing Family WCK has it's own salutation, heigung methods, varied pole and weaponry methods unseen outside our family, a concentration on side body sansau and looksau training, and of course personally I have also been taught from literature (kuit), line by line, which isn't common in my Uncles teachings either. Neither Joseph Cheng, Joe Lee nor Austin Goh. That in itself has caused a little interest in my own martial cousins too, and I'm happy to be in touch with many of them these days!

What my opinions reflect are that of my own learning, and my Sifu is still a mystery to me! He taught me that everyone is individual and that he was still studying and piecing things together himself, and he's a native of the New Territories in HK so what chance has a little gweilo got with all this stuff?!

I will say this though. Lee Shing NEVER charged his students any fees. He was not a 'commercial' instructor making a living off Ip Mans name and his methods obviously had influences from Wing Chun people aside from Ip Man too (mainly Jiu Wan and Lok Yiu)

And so in conclusion, my knowledge of Lee Shing himself has very far to go in terms of research. And even though some students are in contact with his wife and children/grandchildren, it is still hard to collect any hard facts as they too were kept in the dark about his background and Martial Art history! He was a VERY private gentleman, but I guess that's why there are many Wing Chun students out there today who still haven't heard of him at all.

This was why I started to post here years ago, and at least now you guys can say you have heard 'something' about Lee Shing! If only from that little gweilo crazy kid

[/QUOTE]


What I am looking at is something similar to


If today people take a look at Russell, Jim Roselando, Theo.... etc trying to see what Hendrik is sharing, they would find the signature of Crane, Snake, silence, loose, nature..stood out ;even Russell doing Yik Kam/Cho family WCK, Jim Koo Lo WCK Theo.....etc. They will tell you the same thing in their way but pointing to the samething without contradictory. They could have different art and different level of attainment but the core of Hendrik's sharing is always the same. it is independent of who remember what kuit saying...etc. It doesnt dependent on those communication mean but what it is was shared. that is the core. Same with the clip of Hino Akira, one doesnt have to carry all the saying the kuit the sets the drill....etc. one just do it, set the target and send the Jin to the target. because the goal is that issuing not the kuit or this or that. So, what is that " beef?"

So, I would like to know what is the signature of Lee Shin. it must be precise and solid it cannot be Austin has the hard qigong stuffs, others has different stuffs. so at the end is Lee Shin Ok with them on all these stuffs as they like it?, what does Lee Shin teaches them? Or Lee Shin doesnt a Core signature? See, I am not an insider, so share with us, what is Lee Shin's signature which we could find in all his students discregards of what his student practice or evolve their art into.

[WengChün]

interesting discussion on YipkinWCK.

http://mengsmartialarts.com/forum/in...ic,1044.0.html

Benny Meng Quote from Sifu Sergio
"All the Wing Chun history misinformation, all the lies and hatred, come invariably from people who are not researching."

Sergio is always making statements about what is real ancestor to wing chun. First it was Wing Tsun, A.F., Weng Chun, A.H., M.T., S.S., now Black Flag and Benny Meng. In the past Sergio thinks VTM did his homework with Weng Chun Wing Chun is the Shaolin ancestor to Wing Chun. Now Sergio has deleted Weng Chun for Black Flag replacement as Shaolin. If you do your homework you see Black Flag is historical fabrication and Weng Chun is a Shaolin forefather. Sergio left Weng Chun people after he used them up and made hundreds of euro on Weng Chun. Now its Black Flag marketing.

It is funny how the two former students of A.Hoffman are now business partners after failing in business with Weng Chun. I do know why Sergio makes statement about misinformation, lies and hatred when he obviously cheated Weng Chun with fabricated Black Flag.

[Hendrik]

Sergio is always making statements about what is real ancestor to wing chun. First it was Wing Tsun, A.F., Weng Chun, A.H., M.T., S.S., now Black Flag and Benny Meng. In the past Sergio thinks VTM did his homework with Weng Chun Wing Chun is the Shaolin ancestor to Wing Chun. Now Sergio has deleted Weng Chun for Black Flag replacement as Shaolin. If you do your homework you see Black Flag is historical fabrication and Weng Chun is a Shaolin forefather. Sergio left Weng Chun people after he used them up and made hundreds of euro on Weng Chun. Now its Black Flag marketing.

It is funny how the two former students of A.Hoffman are now business partners after failing in business with Weng Chun. I do know why Sergio makes statement about misinformation, lies and hatred when he obviously cheated Weng Chun with fabricated Black Flag.

My view is simply, whatever we put out we take back. So if we are honest things will clear out by itself. and something people do screw up and I dont want to hold that because people changes all the time.

As for all of these WCK history stuffs, it is simple in my view, matching the art's signature for the past 400 years of TCMA and the truth will surface.

I dont by the Shoa lin or Weng Chun hall story decades ago when VTM published the article based on Art's signature.

Now, I dont by HKB still the same reason, the art's signature doesnt match.

Well, a decade later VTM probably go for the old ancestor legend of Crane and Snake. and it seems it will head that way because there is no alternative if one looked at the past 400 years of TCMA with microscope.

But, I am ok for them to make mistake because heck who is perfect and also they spend lots of effort but really doesnt understand much about TCMA development interm of the seeds of different style and the proper history behind it. anotherword, they romancing too much myth and Tien Dee Hui stories which if one look into history it cant be.

Another thing is about the burning of Shao lin by Qing. Well, according to late Ven Hsu Yun the pratiach of Chan China.

Ming using some martial monk as army. So these monk army reside in different Buddhist temple. When the Qing take over china, They know all about the monk army, they dont trust them, and in turn using the Lama army. and the Lama were burning the westerner's church in 1900 boxer rebelion and then when the westerner win the battle the westerner army burn their temple. That is karma of all these fighting fighting.



Also, from the history of china, the qing emperor has good relationship with Shao Lin and in fact the emperor Kang Xi is one of the Top lay Chan Buddhist in the history of China.

As I mention before, the real boss of Tien tee hui or Hung mUn in 1600 was the ex ming military. not the monk not shao lin.

and WCK is not a creation at that time.

WCK is more likely to develop according to the ancestor's legend, IMHO,


1, the creation of an art called Siu Lin Tau ( Not Siu Nim Tau) with Crane and snake . (1750)

2, Siu Lin Tau was taught in the Red boat opera people (1800)

3, Red boat opera follower form Wing Chun Kuen by further evolve and adding different art.

4, the evolution of individual such as Leong Jan/ WWB, Leung Yee Tai, Yik Kam....etc in their own location after the split out from the of Red boat. (1880)

[chusauli]

Many early martial artists got their history from watching Shaw Bros. movies.

Hence Hung Hei Goon, Luk Ah Choy, Jee Shim/Zhi Shan, Wu Mei and the other elders were often put as the secret creators of Southern fist.

I would take these stories with a grain of salt.

[Hendrik]

Many early martial artists got their history from watching Shaw Bros. movies.

Hence Hung Hei Goon, Luk Ah Choy, Jee Shim/Zhi Shan, Wu Mei and the other elders were often put as the secret creators of Southern fist.

I would take these stories with a grain of salt.

That is true, from Shaw Bros movies without really knowing what is going on in the history.

one often see, Jee Shim is the head of Shao Lin, and then his disciple Hung Hei Goon create Hung Kuen, the creator of White Crane Ms Fang married to him. and of cause his kung fu is better the Ms Fang..... and then Jee Shim create Wing Chun kuen tooo.


You know if the above is true, I dont even want to learn Wing Chun Kuen. I am going to learn the White Eyesbow Kuen since it is Bak Mei who kill Jee Shim in the movie and Jee Shim dont even have a chance. So why do I want to learn such a stupid inferior are from Jee Shim. not to mention he is not a Chan man too, what kind of Chan man is that being an Abbort of a Buddhist temple and teaching people to fight and keep fighting until he got kill? those act would get him throw out of Buddhist Temple long before he got kill.

all these mess up or screw up story and his-story is like opium which drug up the so called martial artists who likes to be a warrior. Those are not warrior code, those are Shaw's brother try to make $$$ for entertianment.


I recently saw an interview to Hung Gan Bo, Hung said it clearly something like: I dont know how to fight with these stuffs, I am just doing entertainment. ask those who really in Loi Toi on fighting..... why I do WCK movie is because at that time, many has make Shao Lin and Hung gar movie and we need new story line and open up different market.


Also, you want to learn about history from the Red boat people who make "movie" in their time?

read the art's signature and only trust the signature. IMHO.

[tigershorty]

i never trust anyone who keeps saying "in my honest opinion" or to be "honest"

i assume you always want to be honest and not have to restate that fact...unless you're usually not.

[JPinAZ]

Okay. This is getting quite boring now.

Yet you continue to come and post on this thread..

---You think???? We have a group here that are very into "selective reading." They pay attention to and respond to only what they think supports their own case. They are not here to truly discuss anything rationally. How many times have I posted the answer to "where did Yik Kam learn his Omei and Crane?" And Henrik agreed with my answer. Yet the idiots keep asking the same question.

Ahh, so your contribution is to call people names/idiots simply because they don't agree with you? Very constructive.

Instead of being a pi$$ing match between hendrik and RB93SAAT (whoever you are!) why can't we discuss the history or stories that do not include Omei/Emei/Ermei stuff??!

---It has become obvious to me that this has not been about discussing history at all. This whole thread has been about attacking Hendrik and his theory, even when it was pointed out that the theory exists independent of Hendrik and does not rely on what he has said.

WTF are you talking even about? Isn't discussing the omei-crane-WCK connection/theory of Hendriks and yours, discussing history? Ever think you're the one with the closed mind and selective reading? not to mention your own 'contributions' with your assumptions about others and name calling simply because people don't agree with you.

Here's my final post here,

---Mine as well. There is no point in talking to people who aren't interested in what you have to say.

Dude, stop with the assumptions already! Maybe it's just people don't buy into hendrik's theory/version of WCK history that he presents as 'fact'. Doesn't mean they aren't interested, just they don't agree. If people weren't interested, they wouldn't have repeated their questions that hendrik keeps avoiding.

I'm with RB93SAAT, I still haven't really seen a solid answer as to who it is you or hendrik think mixed the omei and crane to form WCK and the 'original' single long SLT, or when, or which exact lineages the omei and crane came from, or any real proof at all that YK didn't just mix them with some incomplete version of WCK he learned, or where he might have gotten that training from.
Or why you don't see those o-mei 12 jong excersizes in any other WCK system outside of hendriks wck which he claims is proof of his 'theory'.

And after so many pages, it's clear there is no answer coming. I'd say the horse is dead.

[JPinAZ]

i never trust anyone who keeps saying "in my honest opinion" or to be "honest"

i assume you always want to be honest and not have to restate that fact...unless you're usually not.

IMHHHHOOOOO this post needed repeating

[LoneTiger108]

So, I would like to know what is the signature of Lee Shin. it must be precise and solid it cannot be Austin has the hard qigong stuffs, others has different stuffs.

You know my answer to this Hendrik. If you really want to know you must train within the family!! Then you can decide for yourself what Lee Shings 'signature' is because I have tried endlessly to express this in various ways but you still don't seem to understand my amateur ramblings! And you really do need to experience this first hand imhhho.

so at the end is Lee Shin Ok with them on all these stuffs as they like it?, what does Lee Shin teaches them?

Again, the only person who can answer this has already passed on. As far as I'm aware he was very happy with ALL his students and how they decided to promote Wing Chun. He kept himself in the background and taught everyone individually. I guess he used his restauranteur experience and literally set up menus for each student!!

Sadly, because of the families divisions it is still quite difficult to get his original students together to actually see what their differences are. We did succeed in this for one seminar in London, and I'm sure they all know between themselves and I feel that it will probably stay that way in the future

See, I am not an insider, so share with us, what is Lee Shin's signature which we could find in all his students discregards of what his student practice or evolve their art into.

His core? That would be simply Wing Chun imho!

I guess what everyone has, among his direct students, is a distinct pole form. And for me personally it was my Sifus use of the Flag to train our pole form! The use of three seeds (tan, fook, bong) heigung, looksau, chisau and Kulo sticky hands is among everyone I suppose. And of course, some very lucky students accessed his Dai Nim Tao set (similar to sup yee sik/lo of Kulo WCK) which opened up a distinct set of interactions and sansau techniques. The 1980's were a hard time for the family because of this imho.

His key 'physical' signature imo is really his own salutation that all family display prior to any form practise. This involves learning key elbow positions that are used throughout our Wing Chun journey, the most important pair being charp and gwar jang/elbow.

I hope this helps in some way.

[Hendrik]

You know my answer to this Hendrik. If you really want to know you must train within the family!! Then you can decide for yourself what Lee Shings 'signature' is because I have tried endlessly to express this in various ways but you still don't seem to understand my amateur ramblings! And you really do need to experience this first hand imhhho.

You know I dont buy this.

Even for example: KFF and others who follow my post and discuss alots with me, doesnt need to learn from me and doesnt have know the details of what I am practicing.


But he will know, my signatures via the discussion here.

IE. my power generation is closer to the Hino Akira penetration type not Bruce Lee's push and my hua jin is close to the Taiji type....etc

Again, the only person who can answer this has already passed on. As far as I'm aware he was very happy with ALL his students and how they decided to promote Wing Chun. He kept himself in the background and taught everyone individually. I guess he used his restauranteur experience and literally set up menus for each student!!

Promoting WCK is one thing. what uniqueness of the particular lineage is another thing. Both are important.

So, signature doesnt need to answer the question "how to do it" but " what is it different compare with others of the same class."

I guess what everyone has, among his direct students, is a distinct pole form. And for me personally it was my Sifus use of the Flag to train our pole form! The use of three seeds (tan, fook, bong) heigung, looksau, chisau and Kulo sticky hands is among everyone I suppose. And of course, some very lucky students accessed his Dai Nim Tao set (similar to sup yee sik/lo of Kulo WCK) which opened up a distinct set of interactions and sansau techniques. The 1980's were a hard time for the family because of this imho.

Thank you for your sharing. from your describtion and Austin Goh's clips...etc
It is evidents that another evolution has gone through. So, What you called Lee Shin WCK is actually means different things for different people instead of a lineage with GM Lee Shing's signature.

IE: Ip Man WCK has it signatures such as an evolution of Chan Wah to closer to YKS which influence Ip Man. Chan Wah WCK today is closer to southern Shao Lin art. Cho family WCK today is evolve with CLF.....etc. just some rought examples.