how not to fight a boxer

[chusauli]

Robert's conclusion is incorrect.

You can only reach an incorrect conclusion via logical deduction if one or more of your assumptions is incorrect.

His opinion about this is different from mine, and both are just opinions based on experience, certainly not theories backed by large sample classes. This is the anecdotal evidence sneered at by scientists. Take it with a grain of salt ... but also question your assumptions. We humans tend to rely on pattern recognition to make sense of reality, but the downside is that we have a tendency to see patterns that aren't there.

So what you are saying is your experience is different from mine?

[bennyvt]

assuming that the person hasn't learnt something or that its not in their system because he gives you an opinon based on his 11+ years of ground fighting I would say is condesending.

[chusauli]

When my students fight, they fight. In MMA, it is a game with rules, and specific actions.

[Alan Orr]

- I train Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun!!!! Over 2-3 hours a day!

- CSL Wing Chun is the stand up I teach all my guys - for the street, for any type for competition. Boxing, Kickboxing, MMA, whatever. We use 100% CSL Wing Chun

- I teach pure MMA fighters as well. I teach them our system of CSL Chinese Boxing - which is our wing chun striking and body structure. Once they have learnt it, they all say it changes the way they understand striking so much they want to rest of our wing chun system. Which is not like any wing chun they have seen before

- Yes - I train in Wrestling and BJJ. I train with Eddy Millis ( a top fight trainer, K1 fighter and coach also BJJ Black belt) I also train 3 times a week with my BJJ teacher Leo Negao 2 times world champion. ( Leo also now uses CSL Wing Chun Boxing!) He thinks the CSL wing chun like no other striking system he has seen and loves it. He is open minded and a great teacher. He also agrees its great for stand up in MMA as it fit well will BJJ.

- I teach many Pro fighter CSL Wing Chun. Peter Irving trains at my class every week and has learned our system. He is a top UK Pro MMA fighter. I have 3 other Pros in my class now.

- I have a purple belt in BJJ, so I do understand grappling and MMA very well. I know what works as I do it.

My guys that fight use our Wing Chun, so for anyone to say they don't is -

Incorrect - as we know what we train!

How can you know if you never trained with me!

I know some people can not understand what we do. That is fine. No problem. If you have not trained in CSL Wing Chun and have not been to my class or been sparring with with us or trained with us, then of course you would not understand. BUT why then do these guys have so much to say about us LOL

Look, these guys would be best to either drop in and try us out or go and test their wing chun like we do. Otherwise the whole idea of someone telling me what I do and don't do is a complete joke.

I just got back from training my team for coming fights. You never see my guys on fourms.. why?? because they are too busy training hard, and don't need anyone to tell them what they are doing or if it is correct because they already know!

I have 100% respect for my teacher and friend Robert Chu as he has changed my life. I would have never reached the level of skill I have in any of the martial arts that I train without his continued teaching.


Alan

[Alan Orr]

I would be happy for anyone to come to my class and then write what they think after training with me. Like it or not it would be their first hand point of view, which agree or not I would respect and discuss. All this other BS is a waste of time

[Lucas]

cant really argue with that.

[YouKnowWho]

I would be happy for anyone to come to my class and then write what they think after training with me. Like it or not it would be their first hand point of view, which agree or not I would respect and discuss. All this other BS is a waste of time

I had many students came to me after their 1st class and said, "I really like your class but my body is not in good enough shape. I'll come back when my body is in better shape". They would never come back.

After that day, I put sofa in my training hall so people can sit on their soft sofa, have cigar in their mouth, hold beer in their hands, watch video tape, and learnn TCMA at the same time. My business went very well after that.

[anerlich]

So what you are saying is your experience is different from mine?

It would appear so, wouldn't it? As Hendrik would say, "you are certainly correct according to your view." Or something like that, maybe with some random transposition and neologisms thrown in.

Your experience is your experience. Don't be so foolish to think it is more special or informed than anyone elses. you are not a unique and beautiful snowflake. No, nor am I.

assuming that the person hasn't learnt something or that its not in their system because he gives you an opinon based on his 11+ years of ground fighting I would say is condesending.

The assumption is certainly incorrect. Condescending? Benefit of the doubt, but were it true, his problem.

[JPinAZ]

Are you being sarcastic Keith? "Loi lau hoi sung" is a standard Wing Chun kuit: "Receive what comes, escort what leaves".

JP: you are right, but Robert has given us a physical implementation of the (dare I say it?) concept. We have heard it in different forms before, e.g. loading the joints, compressing the springs, etc.

My comment was really directed toward Hendrik and how he thinks this pretty easy-to-grasp concept is so hard for so many people. Was wondering why he finds this idea so difficult?

KPM: it's cool. Maybe next time don't jump at me so quickly with that 'HFY' crap. I speak for myself and from my own experience, hard work and training. And, I actually do know quite a bit about WCK in general outside of my HFY training

[Hendrik]

I was explaining it to a student of mine in NYC this morning. I told him we allow the opponent to feel safe, because all I am doing is taking his force into my body.

He couldn't quite understand, so I told him, "When opponent comes, I am receiving him (in my joints and folds), when he goes, I send him flying because I go with his center of gravity and throw him off balance. I can do this while extending my folds."

Two points are important:

1) Receiving him (in my joints and folds) in Chinese is to "Zhe/Jip" or "pleat" and "fold"...

2) "Throwing" doesn't only mean like grappling, or just throwing back... I can choose to throw him like a ball in 8 directions, or I can choose to strike him at will in 8 directions.
__________________
Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac., QME

My comment was really directed toward Hendrik and how he thinks this pretty easy-to-grasp concept is so hard for so many people. Was wondering why he finds this idea so difficult?

pretty easy to grasp?


Do you notice that, even
the white cloth model in the cover of this book does it in a different way and his body structure doesnt implement Loi Lau Hoi Sung as what Robert share above? he is not "Zhe/Jip" or "pleat" and "fold"... forsure. Why is that if it is so basic in WCK?


http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Kung.../dp/0736045686



So, for me, different lineages are implementing things in a different way. and when some one shared an elegant implementation. I always appreciated.
nothing is pretty easy to grasp if one is not taught.

[CFT]

Do you notice that, even the white cloth model in the cover of this book does it in a different way and his body structure doesnt implement Loi Lau Hoi Sung as what Robert share above? he is not "Zhe/Jip" or "pleat" and "fold"... forsure. Why is that if it is so basic in WCK?

I really would take a photo like that at face value. Nothing more.

You do know that "model" is Garrett Gee himself right? The other model is Benny Meng.

[Hendrik]

I really would take a photo like that at face value. Nothing more.

let's keep it at technical discussion level.


true, take a photo at face value.

And one could look at the body structure for signature which often tell a lots.

This type of signature is different then the type Robert mention.
The white model's body is actually resist it instead of accept it. if the body structure is an accepting one, then the straight leg needs to bend or fold up to take an absorb the incoming force.


so different lineages are doing different things and it is not that every move is come accept goes return in the same way of implementation. there are variaty of implementation and it is not that easy or obvious.

what Robert reveal is actually something very precious.

[CFT]

I mean that it is a pose for a book cover. I'd think differently if it was a still from training.

[Hendrik]

I mean that it is a pose for a book cover. I'd think differently if it was a still from training.

I actually disagree because body structure is an evolution. for me, body has a signature and that signature comes from long term evolution due to training.

if one train for something for 10 years then the body will have that type of evolution. so at any instant that signature will show. one cant evolve the body one way and when using it using it the other way.

Thus, by having a scan on one's body one could see the signature.



another example is --- take the red model in that same picture, one scan will tell he is a TKD guy not a Kyokushin or a MT. his body tell.

[chusauli]

It would appear so, wouldn't it? As Hendrik would say, "you are certainly correct according to your view." Or something like that, maybe with some random transposition and neologisms thrown in.

Your experience is your experience. Don't be so foolish to think it is more special or informed than anyone elses. you are not a unique and beautiful snowflake. No, nor am I.



The assumption is certainly incorrect. Condescending? Benefit of the doubt, but were it true, his problem.

I am not sure, but there certainly seems to be a lot of interference or noise here. All I was asking is if you found that BJJ had shared similar experience as WCK's in terms of "posting, posturing up, maintaining base, smashing, putting the weight on the opponent"?

Again, I repeat, I feel it does. There are indeed, what I feel are similarities to all good, functional martial arts. I'll give examples:

When we lose balance, we use our legs in WCK to "post" and maintain/regain balance.

In WCK, we maintain an upright posture ("posturing up"), so our COG does not get manipulated, and we can move freely in all directions. This allows us to change.

We "Maintain base" by manipulating the structure to maintain a mechanical advantage over the opponent (i.e. attack opponent's COG). Others call this "leverage".

"Smashing" as used in BJJ terms refers to "Putting the weight onto the opponent", in WCK, we do this to by use of structure and the resulting pressure from our resultant vector force.

Condescending thoughts, comments about beautiful snowflakes, and alleged boasting about unique experiences were not a part of my question.

You are a BJJ 11 year veteran. I saw these similarities when introduced to BJJ. I valued your opinion.

Andrew, I have no reason to attack you. Its interesting how this series of posts got misconstrued into something else. Perhaps the terms I used were not universal.