Test Fees

[ginosifu]

i dunno... i still dont agree with the fees... and to be honest, i dont agree with grading... there are no grades at my school... it comes down to time in and skill level... both very obvious to anyone paying attention... grades are simply not needed...

besides, martial arts are a parishable skill... black belt today, fat fukc down the road... still a black belt??? not quite... sure maybe alot of knowledge is retained but if you cant DO it then you arent a black belt... with the exeption of honorary titles being retained by those who are still active and full of knowledge but are simply too old to move the way they used to...

i like how our school works and i'll never go back to one that grades... to me its just so irrelevant and pointless... its an ego thing and a cash grab(self admitted as the main argument here seems to be that a sifu deserves a living too)... parents want to see their kids rewarded and kids grow up thinking they need that title...

in reality all that is needed is skill and knowledge... and any good sifu can tell you when and where you need improvement without formal testing...

and how does this work..? if i dont pay a test fee to move up a grade i wont learn anything new???

There is nothing wrong with the way you guys do it. Don't feel bad cause you are not one the new modern world students or schools. If Ihad my way, I would teach old school like you guys.

ginosifu

[Syn7]

i guess i can sum it up like this...

why would i go to your school and pay more in the end than i would from getting the same level of instruction from somebody who isnt doing it for the money, has other sources of income and is more than willing to give their time to keep their art alive??? in my experience, these teachers arent at all hard to find if you are somewhat competent and take the time to look around... buyer beware is right, why would i not maximize the value of my dollar when i have a choice??? my sifu was groomed to be a teacher since he was a kid... but he's a smart man and makes money outside of his art and first true love... infact its because its his first true love that he did go out and find alternate sources of income... and these sources give him the power to pas down his culture without charging fees that everyone can afford... alot of the kids in our class couldnt afford your instruction... would you teach them for free??? or make exeptions for testing fees and maybe charge less monthly to those who want to learn but have struggling parents, or worse a single mother who needs to find a positive male role model for their child???

i honestly believe that most people willing to pay these fees arent aware that they can get the same level of instruction for less money... and if everyone wised up, what would you do???

[ginosifu]

alot of the kids in our class couldnt afford your instruction... would you teach them for free??? or make exeptions for testing fees and maybe charge less monthly to those who want to learn but have struggling parents, or worse a single mother who needs to find a positive male role model for their child???

i honestly believe that most people willing to pay these fees arent aware that they can get the same level of instruction for less money... and if everyone wised up, what would you do???

#1 I give breaks to people that truly can not afford (single moms / parents with 2 or 3 kids etc etc).

#2 There are those who teach for a lot less around me.... and there are people that say they can not afford my price. This is not a dis respect if peeps can not afford my price.... I am honest with them. I tell them of the other guys that might be cheaper.

#3 Syn7 you are a minority. You are what I call the 1% (like me). Of the average person, 99% of everyone else does not think like you.

The average person drives my school everyday...They stop in take a class and I tell them the price... most join. If I were to tell them off the teacher who teaches for cheaper (he is across town about a 25-30 minute drive), he would tell me that he is not worth it cause of the amount time it would take him to drive there and back. It's happened before!

No single mom is going to drive across town or into a "bad" neighborhood....just to get a cheaper rate. It is not sensible nor is it convenient for a single mom or family who has basketball (child A) on this side if town and cheer leading (child B) at their high school for them to travel an additional 30 minutes just for child C to have Kung Fu.

people have options and I do not lie to them... they chose me because I am a competent teacher who can give then what they want. If a person truly want a traditional sifu that teaches out of his garage because of the Love of it then I tell them. There's a few of them around.

ginosifu

[Syn7]

i dont grudge you your living at all... and if people choose to pay your rates thats on them and im happy for you, dont get me wrong... i just dont get it... but i can see how it would be easier, not cheaper, to just go with whats close and familiar...

but then tv dinners and cheap plastic bubble wrapped disposable products are easier too... but not cheaper in the long run...

for me, im talking ideology here, not economics... from an economics standpoint, get all you can get, by all means... you fit somewheres in the middle...

[bawang]

for me, im talking ideology here, not economics... from an economics standpoint, get all you can get, by all means... you fit somewheres in the middle...

the ideology IS economics

[wenshu]

How about instead of fees and exams, a system of rank where in order to advance the neophytes must kill the person holding the rank above them in ritualized open combat. So on and so forth until upon murdering the Master, they then become the Master, until they are themselves slaughtered by an advancing student. . .



. . .or not.

[mooyingmantis]

We have to remember that there are at least a couple types of schools out there and each is governed by different principles.

Some are lineage-based like Gino's. Gino makes money, his instructor/partner gets a percentage and Master Lam gets his cut. Gino isn't just stuffing his pockets with hundred dollar bills. If you want to be part of a lineage, you literally pay for the privilege.
Want to be a part of Lee Kam Wing's lineage? There are costs involved. When he comes to the states to do a seminar, you will be expected to foot part of his travel and expenses, even if he isn't coming to your school.
Plus, you have no idea how much of a percentage these Masters get from their underlings. My jaw fell open when I heard what was expected from each school by one Master. It was more than I make a year at my secular job. I am not saying this is wrong. I am just reporting the facts.

Some are independent operators. What they make after expenses goes into their pockets. However, since they are independent, they lose out on benefits that are available to the lineage-based schools. Who wouldn't like to attend a seminar with a well-known master at a discounted price? Who wouldn't want a picture of a famous master legitimately hanging on their wall? Who wouldn't want group rates on insurance?

So, sometimes there is more to consider about price than meets the eye.

[Syn7]

the ideology IS economics

not for me...

[Syn7]

i am part of a great lineage... but we dont have that pyramid mafioso kick up the ladder type of model going on...

maybe the trick is to reduce overhead... like some schools are in these new huge buildings with more gear than they need and more space than they need... stuff like that... i dont think its unfair to make a student pay for all their own pads , gloves, etc etc... no need to spen 10 grand on some crazy weapon rack...


a mirror and enough space so the students dont bump into eachother... our school is small and the spot is cheap... we make do just fine... also chinese biz in the hood interested in keeping their culture alive help us out...


i cant walk 3 blocks with sifu to go get some eats without having to stop every ten steps so he can be polite to the people who say hi... they all know and love the guy... even if he was dirt poor, people would support and make due...

[mooyingmantis]

i am part of a great lineage... but we dont have that pyramid mafioso kick up the ladder type of model going on...

maybe the trick is to reduce overhead... like some schools are in these new huge buildings with more gear than they need and more space than they need... stuff like that... i dont think its unfair to make a student pay for all their own pads , gloves, etc etc... no need to spen 10 grand on some crazy weapon rack...


a mirror and enough space so the students dont bump into eachother... our school is small and the spot is cheap... we make do just fine... also chinese biz in the hood interested in keeping their culture alive help us out...


i cant walk 3 blocks with sifu to go get some eats without having to stop every ten steps so he can be polite to the people who say hi... they all know and love the guy... even if he was dirt poor, people would support and make due...

However, occidentals do not get the same respect or support from the occidental community. No one is helping them keep the doors open. And we are judged by totally different standards. If we are dirt poor, we stay dirt poor.

[Syn7]

However, occidentals do not get the same respect or support from the occidental community. No one is helping them keep the doors open. And we are judged by totally different standards. If we are dirt poor, we stay dirt poor.

sucks for you...

i like how you do it tho... garage style... downsized... quality over content... im also willing to bet that all the gear u use with ur students is ur own personal gear... am i right???

[crashhelmet]

How about instead of fees and exams, a system of rank where in order to advance the neophytes must kill the person holding the rank above them in ritualized open combat. So on and so forth until upon murdering the Master, they then become the Master, until they are themselves slaughtered by an advancing student. . .



. . .or not.

Isn't that how the Sith ranking structure is based?

[crashhelmet]

I don't mind paying testing fees. I understand the concept of "time is money." My issue with it comes down to when those testing fees are at arm and leg prices and there are as many as 40 or 50 people testing at one time. At $100 a pop, that's a hell of a great day. At $500 a pop, that's pure greed. Nothing more, nothing less.

[wenshu]

Isn't that how the Sith ranking structure is based?

Not exactly what I was referencing.

The system you mention is more like this:

The first three levels are pretty good, but then they add all this stuff that they tell you actually should have come before the original three levels. The added stuff is so bad that not only does it irrevocably ruin the entire system forever but also millions of childhoods.

aaaaaand back OT;

Ranks and testing are for kids; gives them a sense of accomplishment and goals to aspire to.

Otherwise they don't really belong in kung fu. Unless your pants keep falling down.


Reading some of these posts, the similarities of kung fu schools to pyramid scams is striking.

[mooyingmantis]

sucks for you...

i like how you do it tho... garage style... downsized... quality over content... im also willing to bet that all the gear u use with ur students is ur own personal gear... am i right???

Thank you!

Yep! And I am sure I will never get back the money it cost to remodel my two car garage into a nice training facility with traditional and modern equipment. It doesn't matter to me. I teach to increase/maintain MY skills.

I do it for the love of the art and that is enough for me. However, that doesn't mean that those who do it and expect to support their families on their teaching, do not do it for the love of the art as well.