Mantis Throwing Techniques

[mooyingmantis]

...is it just that 'shuai' is a broader term than 'throw.'?

Yes, I believe that would be an accurate statement. As Gino Belfiore, a national and international shuaijiao champion, stated

In Shuai Chiao competition, our tournament rules are:

If an opponent falls or touches the ground without any rotation, this is a 1 point Throw

....If an opponent feet fly up in the air and there is rotation of their body then this is a 2 point Throw

.... If an opponent feet fly up in the air and they go over the Throwers head with rotation this is a 3 point Throw

...All are considered Throws, but we can divide them into trips, takedowns, sweeps and throw etc.

ginosifu

[ShaolinDan]

Cool. Thanks. That explains everything. Not a better 'thrower' than I thought , just better at 'shuai.'
Thanks for helping me for helping me figure that out.

It's details like this that make this forum worth all the bs.

[YouKnowWho]

Twisting the head to ground, ... but still take-downs.

I will consider the following skills as "how to control your opponent's head and neck" and not throws or takedowns.

抹(Mo) - Wiping
摘(Zai) - Helmet taking
摀(Wu) - Face covering
速(Su) - Forehead push
環(Huan) - Neck surrounding
托(Tuo) - Chin pushing
封(Feng) - Throat blocking

[mooyingmantis]

I will consider the following skills as "how to control your opponent's head and neck" and not throws or takedowns.

抹(Mo) - Wiping
摘(Zai) - Helmet taking
摀(Wu) - Face covering
速(Su) - Forehead push
環(Huan) - Neck surrounding
托(Tuo) - Chin pushing
封(Feng) - Throat blocking

John,
Do you have any pictorial or video examples of these methods?

[ShaolinDan]

I will consider the following skills as "how to control your opponent's head and neck" and not throws or takedowns.

抹(Mo) - Wiping
摘(Zai) - Helmet taking
摀(Wu) - Face covering
速(Su) - Forehead push
環(Huan) - Neck surrounding
托(Tuo) - Chin pushing
封(Feng) - Throat blocking

Now this is far too complicated for me.
Does it have to be one or the other? can't it be both? If it can't be both, then I'm just lost.

[ginosifu]

I'm not familiar with many Chinese terms...So here's a question, if you don't mind. Does the Chinese equivalent for 'throw' (shuai?) encompass more techniques than the English wrestling term 'throw'? 'Cause I'm kind of surprised that a lot of sweeps, which I'd call 'take-downs' are being considered throws...is it just that 'shuai' is a broader term than 'throw.'?

All take downs, trips, throws etc are the category of "Shuai". Add arm bars and joint manipulation and this is considered "Chin Na", even if they trip down.

ginosifu

[ShaolinDan]

All take downs, trips, throws etc are the category of "Shuai". Add arm bars and joint manipulation and this is considered "Chin Na", even if they trip down.

ginosifu

But it's never both at once? Trippy.

[YouKnowWho]

John,
Do you have any pictorial or video examples of these methods?

It's easy to understand by just few words.

抹(Mo) - Wiping - use palm edge to press on forehead or back of neck.
摘(Zai) - Helmet taking - use fingers to pull forehead back.
摀(Wu) - Face covering - use hand to push on face or chin.
速(Su) - Forehead push - use both hands to push on forehead.
環(Huan) - Neck surrounding - head lock.
托(Tuo) - Chin pushing - use palm to push chin or side of jaw.
封(Feng) - Throat blocking - use hand or elbow to push on throat.

Now this is far too complicated for me.
Does it have to be one or the other? can't it be both? If it can't be both, then I'm just lost.

"Most" of the Chinese throws are 上綑下絆(Shang Qun Xia Ban) - tie your opponent's upper body and trip his lower legs. How do you want to "tie" your opponent's upper body does not define throw. The way that you use your leg to trip your opponent's legs will define what throw that you are using. Of course there are "exception". Sometime you can let your hand to do your leg job, or to let your leg to do your hand job.

For example, you can have

- head lock leg block,
- reverse head lock leg block,
- underhook leg block,
- overhook leg block,
- waist control leg block,
- ...

all moves are called "leg block" but with different body controls.

[ginosifu]

But it's never both at once? Trippy.

There are always exceptions to the rule: Elbow Locking throw is a "Shuai" but you are applying a "Lock" o their elbow at the same time.

ginosifu

[ShaolinDan]

There are always exceptions to the rule: Elbow Locking throw is a "Shuai" but you are applying a "Lock" o their elbow at the same time.

ginosifu

Thank God! You've just saved me from having to re-categorize everything!

[EarthDragon]

here is a throw called bung tiao to go along with what YKW was saying

Attachment 6470

[Michael Dasargo]

From my discussions with Tim Cartmell, I now classify throws into the following categories for ease of coaching:

Takedown: Fall with opponent
Knockdown: Opponent falls straight down
Throw: Involves twisting and/or rotating the opponent with amplitude/lift/elevation.

IMO the nature of 7 Star's consolidated quickness creates a propensity to knock down the opponent to maintain the rapid-fire characteristic.

8-Step, however, involves more rotational throwing techniques to maintain the elongated power characteristic of tongbei/bagua and a few xingyi style knockdowns.

Mike D.

[Michael Dasargo]

I find the "7* wasit chop" may work well in clinching situation that you have controlled both of your opponent's arms. It doesn't work well in combat situation when your opponent's back arm is far away from you. It may be easy to get your opponent's leading leg, but it's not that easy to get your opponent's back arm when he stands sideway. Instead of trying to control your opponent's front leg, if you can control his back leg then you don't need his back arm, and You can just play with his leading arm instead. The problem of this modification is you have to force your opponent's feet to be closer, otherwise you may not be able to reach to his back leg (same argument for reaching his back arm).

The indicator to execute 7 Star or Thread Needle Waist chop is that the opponent crosses their mid-line with the rear guard.

The technique is ALWAYS preceded by an attack that provokes such a response.

Reaching will lead to failure.

Mike

[YouKnowWho]

Reaching will lead to failure.

That's a very good point. In the past, I believed to use kick, punch to set up a throw is the best approach. Oneday my friend asked me what if he just keeps moving back? What can I do about in that situation? His question made me to think deeply into this problem. I then realized that to use kick, punch to set up "clinch", and then use "clinch" to set up a throw is much easier. It's 2 steps process instead of 1 step process. It seems slower by using this 2 steps approach. But since my opponent will have less chance to get away (the "clinch" will connect both bodies together), it's a much better method.

I can wait for my opponent to cross his mid-line with the rear guard. I can also force him into that situation from the "clinch". Try to create a chance is always better than try to wait for a chance to happen.

[Michael Dasargo]

Agreed. In fact, we've been blending push hands and chi sao into what we jokingly refer to as "strappling= striking+trapping+grappling"

When the opponent runs straight back, the trapping/trip/knockdown sequence much like in lan jie can solve the issue. (Zhan Nian Lian Sui)

However, when the opponent retreats at an angle, the clinch provides a more dominant control over the opponents position and balance while minimizing striking distance.

Interestingly enough, keeping the elbows down and closing the armpit like a good mantis boxer prevents under-hooks while maintaining trapping/striking freedom.

The neck clinch and headlocks are still accessible but can be used as bait to execute pulling throw or shaving.

When both fighters attempt the double unders, the under/over position became the most frequented position and resulted in mainland style push hands...until someone threw an elbow or got thrown.

M.