Martial Arts & Religion

[sanjuro_ronin]

Man, I have to work on my language... spending too much time with cav scouts these last couple of years...

Don't feel so bad, I've been trying to show that what you want as evidence still amounts to "personal revelation" and I don't seem to be having any luck either.

[Drake]

And of course EVERY person must HEAR it AND accept it, if not that voice is NOT god's, correct?

That's the point. If everyone hears it, then at least they now have at least been given a fair shake, as opposed to looking at a ton of different religions, all written and created by man. A form of man that was particularly brutal and cruel at the time.

But at least it is a TANGIBLE form of evidence for someone to either accept or dismiss. It gives people something to look at and say "Ok, I now have evidence, but what will I do with it?"

A far cry from what is going on now...

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's the point. If everyone hears it, then at least they now have at least been given a fair shake, as opposed to looking at a ton of different religions, all written and created by man. A form of man that was particularly brutal and cruel at the time.

But at least it is a TANGIBLE form of evidence for someone to either accept or dismiss. It gives people something to look at and say "Ok, I now have evidence, but what will I do with it?"

A far cry from what is going on now...

This presupposes that ALL people want to hear God or that God WANTS all to hear him, it presupposes that all people that DO hear God will accept what they heard as God, it presupposes that such an event will convince ALL people, it presupposes that this would be something that God would see as a benefit to mankind, etc
In short, it presupposes a lot of things that we have no reason to believe to be true...
One could argue that such an event would even cause more chaos if it were to happen.

[Drake]

This presupposes that ALL people want to hear God or that God WANTS all to hear him, it presupposes that all people that DO hear God will accept what they heard as God, it presupposes that such an event will convince ALL people, it presupposes that this would be something that God would see as a benefit to mankind, etc
In short, it presupposes a lot of things that we have no reason to believe to be true...
One could argue that such an event would even cause more chaos if it were to happen.

Because the world isn't chaotic enough as is?

It's not about wanting to hear or not. It's about tangible evidence. However, you and I both know my scenario isn't going to happen, don't we? And we both know any excuse possible to rationalize it not happening is grasping at straws.

There is no tangible evidence, and any tangible evidence suggested somehow will always fail to pass muster for whatever reason. Seemed in the "ol' days" this god had no problem making his presence known. You know, back when people could make up **** with impunity.

Now we make excuses for why there's not so much as a whimper coming from a supposedly once thunderous divine.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Because the world isn't chaotic enough as is?

It can very easily be worse.

It's not about wanting to hear or not. It's about tangible evidence. However, you and I both know my scenario isn't going to happen, don't we? And we both know any excuse possible to rationalize it not happening is grasping at straws.

We both know this but probably for different reasons.

There is no tangible evidence, and any tangible evidence suggested somehow will always fail to pass muster for whatever reason. Seemed in the "ol' days" this god had no problem making his presence known. You know, back when people could make up **** with impunity.

That MAY have been the case but even in those days people saw and didn't believe, what makes us think that today would be any different?

Now we make excuses for why there's not so much as a whimper coming from a supposedly once thunderous divine.

Depending on your POV of course.
Some people have no issues in pointing out the wrath of God in everything bad that happens,

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that people ( and I am not saying you Drake) would liek the global evidence of God because, perhaps, deep down they believe/hope for is there is a God for it to be the Christian God of their own (typical) making - A loving daring Father creator that loves us no matter what.
But what if what was revealed was the God of scripture or *gasp* of the Koran?

[Drake]

I think that people ( and I am not saying you Drake) would liek the global evidence of God because, perhaps, deep down that believe in the Christian God of their own (typical) making - A loving daring Father creator that loves us no matter what.
But what if what was revealed was the God of scripture or *gasp* of the Koran?

Viva la revolution!

Sometimes evidence reveals nasty things about the world. Not wanting them to be true doesn't make it go away.

I was going to say something about a huge plot twist in The Walking Dead, until it occurred to me that people here might watch the show, and that I would have just spoiled the crap out of it for them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Viva la revolution!

Sometimes evidence reveals nasty things about the world. Not wanting them to be true doesn't make it go away.

I was going to say something about a huge plot twist in The Walking Dead, until it occurred to me that people here might watch the show, and that I would have just spoiled the crap out of it for them.

I am, as you know a christian but have been trying to discuss this from a "non-denominational" view simply because before one can discuss God one must first discuss IF God exists.
As a Christian it is my belief that God does NOT reveal himself to all, only to those he chooses to, for whatever reason it maybe and the bible states this also ( which you will find in common with almost every other religion- their God reveals himself to who he/she wishes and not to everyone).
Personally I believe the crucial element is man's free will and man coming to God via free will and NOT be "exerted infulence" by God, which is what a "global revelation" would amount to.
Of course IF God does exist and IF God knows enough about us then God may know that a global revelation may be counter-productive and that those who wil believe shall believe in "due time".
Of course I have no evidence for any of that !
BUT I do know that not all people are willing to receive God, accept God, want anything to do with God and that some people simply do not want god to exists, especially the Judeo-Christian God.

[Syn7]

See, you THINK there is a difference from public and personal but there isn't because unless that public revelation happens to EVERYONE at the SAME TIME and ALWAYS IS happening and that everyone ACCEPTS what they are seeing, what you still have is heresay.

It can be argued that Jesus most certainly did reveal God in a public way, at least to those that saw Him and what he did, even more so after the resurrection of course.
It can be argued that God revealed Himself when he freed the Hebrews and the events that were subsrcibed to his power.
And yet some still disbelieved in not only those cases but pretty much any case you can think of.

There is also the possibility that God does not choose or want to reveal Himself to ALL.

So, while it is great to say that "public revelation" is the evidence one needs, it still amounts to personal revelation and what one is really saying is that, " I want God to reveal Himself to me in a way that I can't deny that He is God".

It was a joke. I wouldn't even try to define what a public revelation even means. I was just talking sh1t.

Anywhoo, you are assuming that jesus and moses actually existed and/or did what they are said to have done. Honestly, it doesn't really matter to me if a god exists or not. I do have beef with organized religion for a whole sh1tload of reasons I don't think I need to explain. But honestly, I could care less about people who honestly believe god has touched them with some divine presence. As long as they don't use that to exploit anyone, cool. Have at it. I think true spirituality is about humility and I can respect that, when it's real. What I don't respect are the rank and file pre-programmed products that are the majority of "believers". I can respect somebody who has thought it through FOR THEMSELVES. S'all good.

[Syn7]

Your ego is more enlightened than mine

It's just conditioning, lol... I used to be bothered by perceived slights. But over time even the real insults stopped really getting in. I'll try to look at it objectively and if I can't find my own fault, or someone I trust can't, then I just move on. If I do find fault within my own then I have to address that. I have no problem lying to anyone but I try not to lie to myself. Anyone who is truly serious about even trying to achieve anything near their potential needs to go through that process. There are a lot of things I'm not very good at but not caring about what people who don't matter to me think isn't one of them. They are markers, nothing more.

[Syn7]

It is the same in MA.
You can hear that a given MA is effective and may even believe it base don what you see and from those in which you put trust in their opinion, but the only time you "know for sure" is when you experience it personally.
In that MA and religion are the same: both deal with personal experience and revelation and those that base their MA/religion on that have SOEMTHING of a core, but those that simply take someone elses word for it, they will always be in the "darK'.

I don't question whether spirituality can help people become better people or not. When the serial killer find jesus and repents for real, this is a ghood thing. But it can also have some very negative affects.

MA is the same in that you have to rely on the product for judgement if you don't want to go thru the motuions yourself. So if you want to judge a religion or a martial art look at the students and the flock, no doubt. There has never been a shortage of poor students to hold as an example either. Some good, but more bad IMO. But that's just my opinion. It's not my place to judge what individuals want to believe unless I feel they are doing some sort of harm.

[Syn7]

If I had a personal revelation that the planet Neptune was actually a planet eating transformer named Unicron, would that be held up in any scientific community?

Even if I REALLY, REALLY believed it with ALL MY HEART?

And if he happened to be really smart too... shaming all in academics yet stilll believes the planet is eating transformers??? what then!

[Drake]

and if he happened to be really smart too... Shaming all in academics yet stilll believes the planet is eating transformers??? What then!

wut!?!?

.....

[Syn7]

Still haven't answered my question dude, what would you consider evidence then?

It's a good question and all but it cannot be answered until a proper definition of what GOD even is is put foreword. Feel me? How can one define an outline for proving evidence when the subject isn't even clear?

If god is a white bearded man in the clouds then yeah, he needs to come on down and say hi to us all. But nobody really believes that so it's a poor answer. All answers will be subject to severe flaw until an exact definition of what god you want proof of is established. Tell the folks exactly what god is and maybe they will tell you what they need to 100% believe.

The question is just way too subjective for any sort of watertight rationale.

[Syn7]

And of course EVERY person must HEAR it AND accept it, if not that voice is NOT god's, correct?

Whether people believe something or not really has no bearing on whether it's actually real or not. If you see something and choose not to believe it does not mean that thing wasn't there. Are you asking what it would take to objectively prove something or are you asking what it would take to get everyone to agree on that something? Two very different questions. One easy and objective one not so easy and very subjective.