so what's it called when both arms circle upwards one after the other? just Lu? hahah
i always wonder how literate were these old masters? I mean they may not have even know the proper character or word they really wanted to express.
i see fanche and lulu as anything and everything from crushing blows in attack and defense to devastating pushes, trips, throws and advanced controlling qin na, all completely interchangeable depending on the attacker's movements, range and intent and your own personal intentions regarding the level of damage u wish to apply. i also think footwork is of particular importance with these techniques in order to use them to full capacity.
i think it all depends on what your attacker does that will dictate how u use fanche/lulu, if at all.
my 2 rmb
: )
neil
Two other 7* sequences that have the more traditional Fan Che flavour are Mui Fa Sau 梅花手 and Dai Gah Sik .
Richard A. Tolson
https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy
There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!
53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!
Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!
Excellent point!
In the different forms we see various footwork methods employed:
大 翻 車 - dà fān chē - Greater Water Wheel
Here the fanche technique is used from a stationary position and lulu is used with retreating footwork.
小 翻 車 - xiǎo fān chē - Lesser Water Wheel
Here the fanche technique is used stationary and advancing. There is also useage of the fanche principle on a horizontal plane (as in 插 捶 - Cha Chui). Lulu is used with advancing footwork.
中 路 翻 車 - zhōng lù fān chē - Middle Road Water Wheel
Here the fanche technique is used with running and leaping footwork. Perhaps Kevin or Will could comment on the lulu footwork within the form.
梅 花 路 - méi huā lù - Plum Blossom Road
Here the fanche is used with retreating footwork which ends in a leg trip and lulu is used with advancing footwork.
Last edited by mooyingmantis; 03-18-2012 at 03:02 PM.
Richard A. Tolson
https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy
There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!
53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!
Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!
Here are Wong Hon Fan's comments under the application section of movement thirteen:
功 用
gōng yòng
Application
拳 經 云
quán jīng yún
The fist classics say,
[ 翻 車 遠 , 而 螳 螂 近 ; 翻 車 速 , 而 螳 螂 密 .]
fān chē yuǎn, ér táng láng jìn ; fān chē sù , ér táng láng mì
"Fanche is distant, but praying mantis is close; fanche is rapid, but praying mantis is dense."
翻 車 之 法 頗 多 ,
fān chē zhī fǎ pō duō ,
Fanche's methods are many,
有 順 翻 , 逆 翻 , 斜 翻 , 倒 翻 ,
yǒu shùn fān , nì fān , xié fān , dǎo fān
such as; Following Turning, Reverse Turning, Slanting Turning, Falling Turning,
皆 為 連 續 之 翻 ,
jiē wéi lián xù zhī fān ,
All are continuously turning,
惟 此 祇 一 翻 便 止 .
wéi cǐ zhǐ yī fān biàn zhǐ .
However, this only turns once then stops.
As always, please feel free to offer suggestions concerning the translation.
Last edited by mooyingmantis; 03-18-2012 at 04:30 PM.
Richard A. Tolson
https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy
There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!
53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!
Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!
This topic went off the deep end for me. Sounds like everything is Fanche now.
While Fanche might fit the concept of breaking through the guard and striking not all "breaking guard and striking" is Fanche.* At least not IMHO.
Carry on.
*All birds have wings but all winged animals are not birds.
Fan che techniques are purely hard in nature, there is no locking, blocking or countering involved, just smashing through the opponent regardless of how he acts.
lulu chui is an outside circling of the arm, the upward circling somebody mentioned is called wo du chui. your front arm knocks the opponents punching arm upward, then the back arm protects the head and the front arm does a straight gut punch... its exactly the opposite motion to the basic fan che
Kevin has a good article on fan che on his website, also theres some information here http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum...php?t-187.html
As far as I know, only the lineage coming from Cui Shou Shan has zhong lu fan che
Here is my translation of the Wong Hon Fan series quan pu for Da Fanche:
Da Fan Che
Greater Water-Wheel
01. Middle Level, Double Lift Elbows
zhong ping shuang ti zhou
02. Middle Level, Double Falling Strike
zhong ping shuang zhui chui
03. Casting Strike, Right Single Whip
pie chui you dan bian
04. Hill Climbing, Big Water-Wheel
deng shan da fan che
05. Hill Climbing, Big Water-Wheel
deng shan da fan che
06. Hill Climbing, Big Water-Wheel
deng shan da fan che
07. Three Retreating Windlass Strikes
san che lu lu chui
08. Double Grab Hands, Gathering Strike
shuang feng shou tong chui
09. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
10. Hill Climbing, Left Splitting Strike
deng shan zuo pi chui
11. Hill Climbing, Right Straight Gathering
deng shan you zhi tong
12. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
13. Hill Climbing, Left Splitting Strike
deng shan zuo pi chui
14. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
15. Hill Climbing, Left Straight Gathering
deng shan zuo zhi tong
16. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
17. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
18. Hill Climbing, Left Straight Gathering
deng shan zuo zhi tong
19. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
20. Three Retreating Windlass Strikes
san che lu lu chui
21. Turn Body, Reverse Whipping Strike
zhuan shen fan chou chui
22. Right Whip, Left Colliding Strike
you chou zuo chong chui
23. Hill Climbing, Right Single Whip
deng shan you dan bian
24. Hill Climbing, Big Water-Wheel
deng shan da fan che
25. Double Grab Hand, Gathering Strike
shuang feng shou tong chui
26. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
27. Hill Climbing, Left Straight Gathering
deng shan zuo zhi tong
28. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
29. Skim Strike, Right Single Whip
pie chui you dan bian
30. Hill Climbing, Big Water-Wheel
deng shan da fan che
31. Double Grab Hands, Gather Horse
shuang feng shou tong ma
32. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
33. Hill Climbing, Left Straight Gathering
deng shan zuo zhi tong
34. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
35. Turn Body, Reverse Whipping Strike
zhuan shen fan chou chui
36. Rushing Leg, Lower Catch Cicada
pu tui di bu chan
37. Scurrying Jump, Turn Body Pattern
cuan tiao hui shen shi
38. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
39. Hill Climbing, Left Straight Gathering
deng shan zuo zhi tong
40. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
41. Hill Climbing, Right Crushing Strike
deng shan you beng chui
42. Right Close Door Leg Method
you bi men tui fa
43. Ride Tiger, Double Windlass Strike
kua hu shuang lu chui
44. Lift Leg, Left Circle Strike
ti tui zuo quan chui
45. Grab Hand, Right Straight Gathering
feng shou you zhi tong
46. Gathering Strike, Ten Character Leg
tong chui shi zi tui
47. Horse Pattern, Right Splitting Stop
ma shi you pi ga
48. Ten Character, Left Straight Gathering
shi zi zuo zhi tong
49. Ride Tiger, Left Single Whip
kua hu zuo dan bian
50. Middle Level, Double Lift Elbows
zhong ping shuang ti zhou
51. Middle Level, Double Falling Strike
zhong ping shuang zhui chui
Last edited by mooyingmantis; 03-19-2012 at 03:27 PM.
Richard A. Tolson
https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy
There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!
53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!
Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!
Richard A. Tolson
https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy
There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!
53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!
Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!
Here is my translation of Wong Hon Fan's Xiaofanche quan pu:
Xiao Fan Che
Lesser Water Wheel
01. Middle Level, Double Lift Elbows
zhong ping shuang ti zhou
02. Middle Level, Double Falling Strike
zhong ping shuang zhui chui
03. Casting Strike, Right Single Whip
pie chui you dan bian
04. Hill Climbing, Big Water Wheel
deng shan da fan che
05. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
06. Hill Climbing, Left Gather Strike
deng shan zuo tong chui
07. Hill Climbing, Right Piercing Strike
deng shan you chuan chui
08. Retreating Jump, Right Lifting Strike
zou tiao you tiao chui
09. Enter Ring, Right Folding Elbow
ru huan you die zhou
10. Enter Ring, Right Crushing Strike
ru huan you beng chui
11. Retreat Pattern, Left Gathering Strike
che shi zuo tong chui
12. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
13. Enter Ring, Stomach Strike
ru huan wo du chui
14. Enter Ring, Piercing Gathering Strike
ru huan chuan tong chui
15. Enter Ring, Splitting Gathering Strike
ru huan pi tong chui
16. Leaping Jump, Piercing Splitting Strike
zong tiao chuan pi chui
17. Leaping Jump, Hang Splitting Strike
zong tiao gua pi chui
18. Leaping Jump, Slant Whip Strike
zong tiao shan chou chui
19. Collapse Stance, Seal Lower Skim
tun chang feng di pie
20. Seven Star, Three Phoenix Eyes
qi xing san feng yan
21. Seven Star, Double Hang Strikes
qi xing shuang gua chui
22. Twist Body, Double Hang Strikes
niu shen shuang gua chui
23. Seven Star, Pierce Lower Skim
qi xing chuan di pie
24. Advance Pattern, Three Windlass Strikes
jin shi san lu lu
25. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
26. Hill Climbing, Left Gathering Strike
deng shan zuo tong chui
27. Hill Climbing, Right Piercing Strike
deng shan you chuan chui
28. Circle Hand, Ten Character Strike
quan shou shi zi chui
29. Seven Star, Upper Whip Strike
qi xing shang chou chui
30. Left Right Continuous Strike
zuo you lian huan chui
31. Seven Star, Piercing Lower Skim
qi xing chuan di pie
32. Hill Climbing, Right Circle Strike
deng shan you quan chui
33. Hill Climbing, Left Circle Strike
deng shan zuo quan chui
34. Hill Climbing, Right Circle Strike
deng shan you quan chui
35. Hill Climbing, Seal Gathering Strike
deng shan feng tong chui
36. Ride Tiger, Lift Gathering Strike
kua hu tiao tong chui
Richard A. Tolson
https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy
There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!
53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!
Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!