Internal Power

[YouKnowWho]

Here is somone's term "IP - Internal strength and being known for weird power. Use of jins in an unusual fashion different than a normal grappling feel".

You can't use "internal" power to lift weights.

If that's correct then what can we do with it? Can we use it in

- straight punch?
- roundhouse kick?
- elbow lock?
- hip throw?

When most people talk about "IP", they avoid to talk about how to use it in roundhouse kick and hip throw. I just hate to see that "IP" can only be used to "push" people away.

This subject suppose to belong to the "internal" forum. Since I have discussed this subject in other "internal" form for the past 10 years and still don't get my questions answered. I though may be I'll try in this forum instead. My questions are:

How to use IP on:

- heavy bag?
- throwing dummy?
- weight lift (IronFist just said that I can't)?
- roundhouse kick?
- hip throw?

[Lucas]

ive always viewed 'internal' is just having very good coordination (structure, mechanics, breath, etc) throughout your movements by utilizing the whole body as one single unit. effeciency. i think you can do absolutely anything with 'internal' movement. sometimes when people use the word 'skill' i think it can roughly equates to the same thing.

example:

when you hip throw someone, and you can pull off that 'effortless' throw via proper solid technique, performing the technique effeciently after you've achieved the 'best case scenario' meaning you've disrupted them to where you want them, and the BAM hit that throw hard and quick, with a massive slam that makes you feel good from your head down to your toes. vs. having them in the same position, yet not lifting right, now turning right, etc. so that your throw takes much more engery and effort to finish. to me that is how a throw is done with 'internal'.

however, I, like others here, i dont like to use the term 'internal' because i think there are better ways to describe what is going on, rather than using some vague term that means different things to different people. and yes i think that people in all faucets of physical endeavvors achieve 'internal' from tennis to mma

[YouKnowWho]

When someone said, "I do internal training, and I apply internal skill in fighting."

What does he means?

[IronFist]

If that's correct then what can we do with it?

I don't know. I am still waiting for an "internal" guy to use his internal qi power to do something that cannot be explained by physics, physical conditioning, proper body mechanics or stage tricks.

Can we use it in

- straight punch?
- roundhouse kick?
- elbow lock?
- hip throw?

In order to use internal power for those, they would have to contain some element than a regular straight punch, roundhouse kick, etc. does not contain.

For example, have the internal guy throw a straight punch. Now have him throw a straight punch with internal power. What is the difference? What changed? What quantifiable variable is different between the two straight punches?

How to use IP on:

- heavy bag?
- throwing dummy?
- weight lift (IronFist just said that I can't)?
- roundhouse kick?
- hip throw?

Ask them how using their internal power on those techniques is different from when an external stylist, such as a kickboxer, a muay Thai guy, a western boxer, or a power lifter performs those same techniques.

[IronFist]

When someone said, "I do internal training, and I apply internal skill in fighting."

What does he means?

He means he wants you to think he has mystic powers that normal people don't have.

[Lucas]

He means he wants you to think he has mystic powers that normal people don't have.

pretty much.

[IronFist]

ive always viewed 'internal' is just having very good coordination (structure, mechanics, breath, etc) throughout your movements by utilizing the whole body as one single unit. effeciency. i think you can do absolutely anything with 'internal' movement. sometimes when people use the word 'skill' i think it can roughly equates to the same thing.

I understand what you are saying.

But that is not what most people mean when they talk about internal power, qi, etc.

By your definition, an Olympic lifter has good internal power.

By your definition, a western boxer has good internal power.

I think you are just talking about "unconscious competency" as some call it. Your nervous system is efficient at performing the techniques and you can do them effectively without thinking and without much effort.

The first time someone tries a barbell squat, they are shaky and don't have the form right and aren't comfortable with it.

A powerlifter who has been squatting for 10 years can do it without even thinking about it.

But that's not qi. That's not mystic power. That's just physical and nervous system adaptation to a movement.

however, I, like others here, i dont like to use the term 'internal' because i think there are better ways to describe what is going on, rather than using some vague term that means different things to different people. and yes i think that people in all faucets of physical endeavvors achieve 'internal' from tennis to mma

Agreed.

"Internal" means qi, no touch knockouts, rooting, mystic power nonsense. It doesn't mean you're skilled at and familiar with a movement.

Mostly it is the fraudsters who have given "internal" a bad name. However, I wonder how far back this fraud goes. Hundreds of years ago in China, were people trying to convince others that they could stop attacks using their qi (as opposed to muscular tension, physics, and proper application of body mechanics)? I bet back in the day, convincing people you had magic power may have been a survival technique. "Don't mess with those kung fu guys, they have magic powers. Let's go pick on someone else."

But now it's just silly. Like that guy on Stan Lee's Superhumans who took a drill to his head and protected himself with his qi power. Ridiculous. They even hooked a sensor up to his arm muscles to prove he was actually pressing it into his head. What they didn't mention was that his other arm was pulling away with just as much tension, with a net result of 0 force being pressed into his head.

Snakeoil.

But people eat that up. "Hey, look at that monk with mystic powers! Wow that's awesome!"

And it's just kind of accepted in American society that Asian monks and gurus have mystic powers, so no one really looks at it critically. People just accept that Asian stuff is mystical and magic. That air of mysticism is what snakeoil salesmen and qi gurus use to profit.

[Lucas]

Ask them how using their internal power on those techniques is different from when an external stylist, such as a kickboxer, a muay Thai guy, a western boxer, or a power lifter performs those same techniques.

they cannot explain it, because there is no difference. a long time boxer will have such effeciency of motion in his strikes, that an amature cannot compare 'internal' cma practitioner cannot hope to match his punching power. because the boxer has more 'internal' development through repetition and refinement of motion.

[YouKnowWho]

When I was young, I loved to touch hands with people who claimed to have combat skill. One day I told my teacher that I want to meet some "internal" guy to experience their superhuman power. My teacher said, "I have traveled in China from north to south, and I haven't been able to experience that. What do you think that you will have better luck than I do in your generation?"

[Lucas]

I understand what you are saying.

But that is not what most people mean when they talk about internal power, qi, etc.

By your definition, an Olympic lifter has good internal power.

By your definition, a western boxer has good internal power.

I think you are just talking about "unconscious competency" as some call it. Your nervous system is efficient at performing the techniques and you can do them effectively without thinking and without much effort.

The first time someone tries a barbell squat, they are shaky and don't have the form right and aren't comfortable with it.

A powerlifter who has been squatting for 10 years can do it without even thinking about it.

But that's not qi. That's not mystic power. That's just physical and nervous system adaptation to a movement.



Agreed.

"Internal" means qi, no touch knockouts, rooting, mystic power nonsense. It doesn't mean you're skilled at and familiar with a movement.

Mostly it is the fraudsters who have given "internal" a bad name. However, I wonder how far back this fraud goes. Hundreds of years ago in China, were people trying to convince others that they could stop attacks using their qi (as opposed to muscular tension, physics, and proper application of body mechanics)? I bet back in the day, convincing people you had magic power may have been a survival technique. "Don't mess with those kung fu guys, they have magic powers. Let's go pick on someone else."

But now it's just silly. Like that guy on Stan Lee's Superhumans who took a drill to his head and protected himself with his qi power. Ridiculous. They even hooked a sensor up to his arm muscles to prove he was actually pressing it into his head. What they didn't mention was that his other arm was pulling away with just as much tension, with a net result of 0 force being pressed into his head.

Snakeoil.

But people eat that up. "Hey, look at that monk with mystic powers! Wow that's awesome!"

And it's just kind of accepted in American society that Asian monks and gurus have mystic powers, so no one really looks at it critically. People just accept that Asian stuff is mystical and magic. That air of mysticism is what snakeoil salesmen and qi gurus use to profit.

ya i get you, and i agree that its probably a pretty old scam. i dont believe that 'internal' is anything mystical, simply that people would like others to believe it is.

[IronFist]

they cannot explain it, because there is no difference. a long time boxer will have such effeciency of motion in his strikes, that an amature cannot compare 'internal' cma practitioner cannot hope to match his punching power. because the boxer has more 'internal' development through repetition and refinement of motion.

Exactly, there is no difference, because you cannot infuse a punch or kick with internal qi power and make it different from a regular punch or kick.

And if anyone can, please call James Randi.

[IronFist]

ya i get you, and i agree that its probably a pretty old scam. i dont believe that 'internal' is anything mystical, simply that people would like others to believe it is.

Agreed

I was banned from another well-known kung fu forum for talking about this stuff.

The "gurus" don't like people exposing the truth.

[Lucas]

the other day someone new to 'tai chi' you know the hippy kind, made mention of people floating you know in old temples and crap...i dont even address that junk anymore. im tired. sick and tired of correcting people

if people want to believe in the easter bunny or floating monks...fine.

[Lucas]

Agreed

I was banned from another well-known kung fu forum for talking about this stuff.

The snakeoil salesmen don't like people exposing the truth.

lol so sad its true

[IronFist]

the other day someone new to 'tai chi' you know the hippy kind, made mention of people floating you know in old temples and crap...i dont even address that junk anymore. im tired. sick and tired of correcting people

if people want to believe in the easter bunny or floating monks...fine.

There was a whole show a few months back about some dude (a stage magician) who went to Tibet or China or something to meet a monk who could supposedly levitate. Some of the townspeople were afraid of the monk, thinking he had mystic power. Along the way, he met other "performers" like one guy who would stick a nail through his tongue, but he revealed the to camera that it was a pig tongue or something which he secretly slipped into his mouth. SLEIGHT OF HAND.

Eventually the guy found the monk and he agreed to demonstrate his levitation.

Of course, the camera guys and the guy had to stand back and couldn't film from certain angles

It was pretty obvious he was being lifted up by some machine in the floor or wall.

At the end of the show, even the host was like "well, who knows if it was a trick or not."

I was so annoyed that I wasted an hour watching that. I mean, I knew it was gonna be dumb, but it was really dumb.