It is rude to ask a teacher to spar if

[Happy Tiger]

Teaching is difficult even under the best conditions. Respect for a teacher is paramount if the student is to take him very seriously. To ask to spar with him is a challenge of his skills, and in my opinion a direct insult. If a student feels he can beat you, he will not show the respect he should and will second guess you at every turn.
Many years ago I was asked to teach two young brothers. I asked for and got a large sum of money for 2 years of instruction. In that two years they would either learn it or not, but that was strictly up to them. One of the young men, the older one, began to question my ability to fight. He told his brother that he felt he could take me, and he would argue points with me. I would not argue, so I agreed to give him a shot at me. I easily beat him to the ground. I was probably too rough with him, but I had to reinstill that needed respect or I would have to send him home for good. At that point he could no longer learn without it.
If your sifu comes to you and says, Lets Spar, fine. Show respect in doing so. But I would never approach him with that request.

Sometimes an elder has to cuff a young buck. With my attitude in the past I took a cuff or two from my masters. Well worth it.

[SteveLau]

Besides attitude and intention, the content of the ask can be rude. For example, I think it is not good to do the following because we might easily step over the line if not on the line:

A student wants to ensure himself if has mastered fighting skill. So he asks his teacher to spar with him in a no-hold free fight session.



KC
Hong Kong

[pateticorecords]

My approach is that all students should spar, and as an instructor you bring down your intensity to accommodate the student's skill level. That way you can adjust your teachings to what that student in particular needs to work on to improve and grow.

We do 3 minutes rounds. 1 round striking combos, 1 round striking combos plus take-downs/sweeps, 1 round striking and grappling, 1 round stand up and floor grappling. We continuously rotate partners between rounds to work on different height, weight, individual styles, and skill levels.

[IronFist]

We continuously rotate partners between rounds to work on different height, weight, individual styles, and skill levels.

That's a good way to do it.

[Mike Patterson]

Hi folks. Back in town and liked this one so thought I'd post. It's a busy time for me, so don't know if I'll get back to answer any rebuttals, comments or queries. But here's my take, for what it's worth:

Ask to spar? I certainly do not see a problem with that. A good teacher should be able to "dial" either up or down to fit the student's needs at their level.

Now, ask to fight. That's a bit different and the student is taking a risk depending on who the teacher in question may be and his/her normal demeanor.

At a time when Steve Cotter was my senior student and first considering full contact fighting, he asked me to fight with him one given Thursday. I told him no problem and that he should go "gear up" for the purpose. He said that he felt that he would not be wearing gear in competition, so he didn't want to wear gear with me. Thus he felt he would "get used to the realism." I told him that he was not yet ready to go all out with me without safety gear. But he deigned to disagree. So, I said fine. And we commenced.

Steve had always been a head hunter in those days, so I immediately dropped my guard and moved into range inviting the head shot. He of course could not resist the temptation and took the offer with his right hand. I immediately parried, stepped into him and drove a half fist into his right floating ribs. He of course went down like a stone.

As he lay there, gasping for air, he looked up at me and said, "that would have been it wouldn't it?" I said, if you mean had we been fighting in the street I would have finished you, then yes, that would have been it.

Sometimes, young bucks need to test their metal. It's okay. Let them. Just be compassionate about the lesson. They need to learn. And I mean on both sides of the equation.

As Lee Chiang Po said in this thread; Sparring is not fighting. He is quite correct in this assessment.

And as Sanjuro said; You can only really know if a person can fight by fighting with them. He is also right in his assessment.

As I had tried to say before; there are many echelons and they are not equal. Sparring is not fighting. Training, even against a resistant opponent, is also not fighting. Competitive fighting is not street fighting. Each echelon carries with it certain mindsets. The only mindset that is of importance in actual fighting is that which takes into account the associated adrenal responses that go along with true threat. If you have not lived that, no matter how much competitive ring, platform, cage fighting you have done; No matter how much training against resistant opponents you have done; there is a high probability of failure when you feel truly and completely threatened. This is fact.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Hi folks. Back in town and liked this one so thought I'd post. It's a busy time for me, so don't know if I'll get back to answer any rebuttals, comments or queries. But here's my take, for what it's worth:

Ask to spar? I certainly do not see a problem with that. A good teacher should be able to "dial" either up or down to fit the student's needs at their level.

Now, ask to fight. That's a bit different and the student is taking a risk depending on who the teacher in question may be and his/her normal demeanor.

At a time when Steve Cotter was my senior student and first considering full contact fighting, he asked me to fight with him one given Thursday. I told him no problem and that he should go "gear up" for the purpose. He said that he felt that he would not be wearing gear in competition, so he didn't want to wear gear with me. Thus he felt he would "get used to the realism." I told him that he was not yet ready to go all out with me without safety gear. But he deigned to disagree. So, I said fine. And we commenced.

Steve had always been a head hunter in those days, so I immediately dropped my guard and moved into range inviting the head shot. He of course could not resist the temptation and took the offer with his right hand. I immediately parried, stepped into him and drove a half fist into his right floating ribs. He of course went down like a stone.

As he lay there, gasping for air, he looked up at me and said, "that would have been it wouldn't it?" I said, if you mean had we been fighting in the street I would have finished you, then yes, that would have been it.

Sometimes, young bucks need to test their metal. It's okay. Let them. Just be compassionate about the lesson. They need to learn. And I mean on both sides of the equation.

As Lee Chiang Po said in this thread; Sparring is not fighting. He is quite correct in this assessment.

And as Sanjuro said; You can only really know if a person can fight by fighting with them. He is also right in his assessment.

As I had tried to say before; there are many echelons and they are not equal. Sparring is not fighting. Training, even against a resistant opponent, is also not fighting. Competitive fighting is not street fighting. Each echelon carries with it certain mindsets. The only mindset that is of importance in actual fighting is that which takes into account the associated adrenal responses that go along with true threat. If you have not lived that, no matter how much competitive ring, platform, cage fighting you have done; No matter how much training against resistant opponents you have done; there is a high probability of failure when you feel truly and completely threatened. This is fact.

Welcome back Sifu and well stated...I value your contributions to this forum.

[lance]

Not always. There's more to the arts than fighting.

Sure , I know that but what if you trying to talk yourself out of fighting , and the person just comes around and assaults you . I don ' t think as martial artist
we ' ve all being taught to take the abuse and humulation giving to us by our opponents . To me martial arts is used for self defense and fighting . Only if you really have to , other than that just stay out of trouble .

Shaolin , do you practice kung fu for the sake of keeping the tradition or just for excercise ? In reality the tradition won ' t protect you , but only the martial arts that you learned and practice all your life will .




Everyone has an off day.

Well , some people do .

[SteveLau]

Mike Patterson, well said.

Yep, sparring (training) is not the same as fighting. There might be hold back in both though for good reasons. IMHO, not wearing any protective gears in sparring is generally unwise.



KC
Hong Kong

[TenTigers]

I used to do the "dial it down for students" thing, and it kinda backfired on me.
I used to line up my senior students, intermediate up through black belt level.
So if they were a "blue belt" I would spar them at "Green Belt", etc. This way, they get a few shots in on me and I give them back just a bit more to help bring them up.
Except for this one (ockyy 25 yr old, who didn't get it. All he knew is that he "got in on me," and didn't put it together that I was playing the same game with everyone.
His attitude started to change. You could see it, and lo and behold, one day he said, "when do we spar?" meaning he and I.
I had him spar my young 16 yr old student (whom I've been babysitting for since he was seven, and my idea of babysitting was training him.)
"Who him? He's just a kid!"
"He outranks you and is your senior."
So the little 16 yr old and he sparred, and he tried to take the kid's head off.
After several warnings about lightening up on his head contact, the kid looks over at me and I gave him the nod.
He lit up this guy, thumping him in the head, in between strikes saying, "Watch(smack) your(smack) freakin(smack) head contact (smack-smack-smack)"
Attitude adjusted.
So...should I have done the attitude adjustment? Sure, I could have, but then I would be a bully and I don't know if he would have gotten the point.
Having the kid do it brought him down to Earth real fast.

then again...
maybe not...
he never did come back after that...
oh well..one less azole in my school.

[-N-]

I used to do the "dial it down for students" thing, and it kinda backfired on me.

Sounds like it worked out fine for both the 16 and 25 year old.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is sparring and then there is sparring, there is fighting and then there is fighting.
Sparring is, typiclaly, freestyle controlled fighting.
You know your opponent, you know the rules, you know what you are there for - to learn and to test yourselves, he ( your opponent) is you best friend because he is helping you to train and develop your skills.
The degree of contact can b e anything from light contact to full contact but very rarely is their violent intent ( to desire to hurt) and never should there be "malice" in sparring.
In a fight you, typiclaly, do not know your opponent ( though you may), the contact is ALWAYS full contact and there is ALWAYS the intent to inflict pain and injure your opponent.
Rules are irrelevant ( in sparring you know them and in a fight you know them, it's just that in a fight you KNOW there are NO rules).
Here is the thing though, ONLY when you are fighting ANOTHER trained fighter is fighting more "dangerous" than sparring.
People tend to forget that fighting a guy that doens't know how to fight when WE KNOW how to fight is NOT a challeneg like actually fighting someone that KNOWS how to fight AND WANTS to beat us into a bloody pulp.

Just because you fight on " the street" with "no rules" doesn't mean that fight was more dangerous than a full contact sparring match with someone that ACTUALLY KNOWS how to fight.

The issue is and always has been, WHO are you fighting.

[TenTigers]

Just because you fight on " the street" with "no rules" doesn't mean that fight was more dangerous than a full contact sparring match with someone that ACTUALLY KNOWS how to fight.

The issue is and always has been, WHO are you fighting.

true dat. Too many people brag about their street fights, when they were barroom brawls against drunk, untrained, youngsters.

[RWilson]

I used to do the "dial it down for students" thing, and it kinda backfired on me.
I used to line up my senior students, intermediate up through black belt level.
So if they were a "blue belt" I would spar them at "Green Belt", etc. This way, they get a few shots in on me and I give them back just a bit more to help bring them up.
Except for this one (ockyy 25 yr old, who didn't get it. All he knew is that he "got in on me," and didn't put it together that I was playing the same game with everyone.
His attitude started to change. You could see it, and lo and behold, one day he said, "when do we spar?" meaning he and I.
I had him spar my young 16 yr old student (whom I've been babysitting for since he was seven, and my idea of babysitting was training him.)
"Who him? He's just a kid!"
"He outranks you and is your senior."
So the little 16 yr old and he sparred, and he tried to take the kid's head off.
After several warnings about lightening up on his head contact, the kid looks over at me and I gave him the nod.
He lit up this guy, thumping him in the head, in between strikes saying, "Watch(smack) your(smack) freakin(smack) head contact (smack-smack-smack)"
Attitude adjusted.
So...should I have done the attitude adjustment? Sure, I could have, but then I would be a bully and I don't know if he would have gotten the point.
Having the kid do it brought him down to Earth real fast.

then again...
maybe not...
he never did come back after that...
oh well..one less azole in my school.

What kind of sparing are you referring to? If it is the slappy hand tcma stuff than that does not really count. Are you talking about with gear, without? How hard was the contact?

[Pork Chop]

There is sparring and then there is sparring, there is fighting and then there is fighting.
Sparring is, typiclaly, freestyle controlled fighting.
You know your opponent, you know the rules, you know what you are there for - to learn and to test yourselves, he ( your opponent) is you best friend because he is helping you to train and develop your skills.
The degree of contact can b e anything from light contact to full contact but very rarely is their violent intent ( to desire to hurt) and never should there be "malice" in sparring.

I love sparring and I hate it.
It's addicting but it can really suck.

Some guys, I jump in there, we beat the living tar out of each other and it's all love.
Other guys, the spar may not even be that hard, but I will absolutely hate it.
Doesn't seem to have much to do with "winning" or "losing"; but fear for my health does play into it.

Latest pet peeve is a guy who's exclusively a counter fighter. He will never initiate. I can tag him (almost at will), but if the shot is clean - even pulled, he will get noticeably angry. Then he waits. He'll open himself up at least once more and then try to kill me. If I swing for the fences, it makes his job at countering easier. If I stick to the plan, just stick and move with the jab, it makes for a very boring spar - but I almost have to play that perfectly because he will try to hurt me. He drops his hands a lot and leans back against the ropes - if I tap him lightly he talks trash, if I chin check him even a little he calls "foul", starts making excuses, loses his temper, and then goes into stalker mode. It's just more drama than I feel like dealing with on a day-to-day basis.

I seem to bring out the a-hole in a lot of people. I have the most problem with working class guys that think they are entitled to put a whoopin' on me because I'm a pasty white desk jockey. Had a pro repeatedly go to my nuts intentionally (even after being warned by his own coach). Had a guy turning pro drop elbows on me because he didn't like that I was bobbing & weaving under his punches. Got thrown into a mirror (long story), tackled, rabbit punched, you name it...

When it's fun and playful, I'll spar all day every day.
When it becomes heated and/or dangerous (ie. flying knees from a guy with a history of breaking my ribs with knee shots), I have better things to do with my training time.

Going back to the original post...
It depends on how you go about asking the teacher to spar.
If you do it as a "touch hands" kind of way, I'm sure there's no problem; especially if you let the guy save face in front of his class and let him get some shots in.
If you go out there trying to hurt the guy, it doesn't matter how long you've been training with him, it's still pretty rude - unless of course, he asks you to do it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I love sparring and I hate it.
It's addicting but it can really suck.

Some guys, I jump in there, we beat the living tar out of each other and it's all love.
Other guys, the spar may not even be that hard, but I will absolutely hate it.
Doesn't seem to have much to do with "winning" or "losing"; but fear for my health does play into it.

Latest pet peeve is a guy who's exclusively a counter fighter. He will never initiate. I can tag him (almost at will), but if the shot is clean - even pulled, he will get noticeably angry. Then he waits. He'll open himself up at least once more and then try to kill me. If I swing for the fences, it makes his job at countering easier. If I stick to the plan, just stick and move with the jab, it makes for a very boring spar - but I almost have to play that perfectly because he will try to hurt me. He drops his hands a lot and leans back against the ropes - if I tap him lightly he talks trash, if I chin check him even a little he calls "foul", starts making excuses, loses his temper, and then goes into stalker mode. It's just more drama than I feel like dealing with on a day-to-day basis.

I seem to bring out the a-hole in a lot of people. I have the most problem with working class guys that think they are entitled to put a whoopin' on me because I'm a pasty white desk jockey. Had a pro repeatedly go to my nuts intentionally (even after being warned by his own coach). Had a guy turning pro drop elbows on me because he didn't like that I was bobbing & weaving under his punches. Got thrown into a mirror (long story), tackled, rabbit punched, you name it...

When it's fun and playful, I'll spar all day every day.
When it becomes heated and/or dangerous (ie. flying knees from a guy with a history of breaking my ribs with knee shots), I have better things to do with my training time.

Going back to the original post...
It depends on how you go about asking the teacher to spar.
If you do it as a "touch hands" kind of way, I'm sure there's no problem; especially if you let the guy save face in front of his class and let him get some shots in.
If you go out there trying to hurt the guy, it doesn't matter how long you've been training with him, it's still pretty rude - unless of course, he asks you to do it.

It must ALWAYS be made clear to ALL involved that sparring IS TRAINING and that makes your sparring partner your training partner, the guy that is there to help you get better and help you to survive.
He is not your enemy and there is no place for ego in sparring.
OF course, easier said than done.
Contact level must always be agreed upon before hand and the coach/teacher should always be the one in control.
I've seen a few sparring sessions turn into fights because they guys didn't like each other and the coach didn't think it a big deal.
No cool.
I once was a sparring partner for a guy that was training for the national boxing title.
Because we knew he was doing that, we went hard BUT not so hard that he'd get hurt and couldn't compete, BUT he was taking advantage of that. The coach saw it and gave us the green light to "keep him honest" and when he complained that he could get hurt and miss the match, the coach reminded him the "respect comes from how we treat others".