Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

[k gledhill]

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Good grief- there are knees in wing chun!!

Ladies & gentlemen I give you ( please dont pull the private behind closed door with YM secret missing things ) himself. Judging from the picture of you hooking...you ALSO have those too.

[GlennR]

Random use of striking, like... headbutts, knees, even I have used in brawls.
The statement refers to ADDING iow why arent there knees in VT forms, drills ?
( please dont pull the private behind closed door with YM secret missing things )

So WSL was wrong to use a knee?

[k gledhill]

So WSL was wrong to use a knee?

You're missing the point.

[GlennR]

You're missing the point.

No, I get your point and I'm having some fun.

But I think this argument brings up the whole technique v principal argument.

Look at my earlier post in response to the hook. You can't argue with my logic using the principal of striking from the closest point... It just happens to be a circular motion.

It all comes down to what you see WC as.

Personally, I see it as a unique way to generate power at a very short range, be it staight punches or curved one and I use the WC engine to drive that. That's the TST lineage thing coming out in me. Obviously that's just one aspect but, to me, an extremely important one because if you can't hit hard in a striking style I suggest you try BJJ or another grappling style.

You guys are different, you change lines, focus on the vertical.... You do it a bit different from my experience.

So what's the problem if Joy, Spencer, me or guys from other lineages/styles have a slightly different take yet STILL adhere to the principals?

Fire away!

[LFJ]

Thanks for clearing that up.
Just one thing though:
I recall reading how WSL was criticized because he used a knee strike to end a fight and there were no knees Strikes in WC ( this is from the WSL book with David Peterson IIRC) and He said that it was WC because he used the closest weapon ( His knee) to the closest target ( opponents face).
ARe you saying that a hook punch will never fall into that category?

A straight knee to the face is a random use of the body in adherence to Wing Chun principles. While it is an action not appearing in the forms, its use is valid because it is simple, direct, and efficient. As he said, it was the closest weapon to the closest target. It also covers the center line and has forward driving force as a regular kick or elbow-down punch. A straight knee to the face in such an instance is within WC principles.

He didn't first swing his leg out and around in a curving motion, which would have been indirect, inefficient, opened the center, etc. just like a hook punch.

Will a hook punch ever fall into the category of closest weapon to the closest target, you ask?

What is the shortest distance between the two?

When found with the hand off center on the outside, to regain the center using a hook punch (by definition not a straight line) will be wide and leave the center open. It won't regain anything unless you land the punch and then drop your elbow. But that is not simple, direct, or efficient.

Instead, as the action is done in Biu-ji as I know it, the elbow pulls in to cut and clear the line. The fist remains vertical and turns in toward the target. Cutting across to the center it travels in a straight line until it is back on the center- elbow in and down, fist striking the target. Whatever is in the path is cut by the elbow/forearm. This is a fuk "suppressing energy" concept in carrying out the principles of the system.

Closed center line, straight line lin siu dai da, closest weapon to closest target, etc.. All of which a hook punch does not achieve.

[LFJ]

You can't argue with my logic using the principal of striking from the closest point... It just happens to be a circular motion.

I just did. See above.

So what's the problem if Joy, Spencer, me or guys from other lineages/styles have a slightly different take yet STILL adhere to the principals?

Nice you wrote adhere to the "principals", because you listen to whatever the Sifu with a pretty lineage chart says is Wing Chun.

Unfortunately, a circular punch doesn't adhere to the "principles" of WC.

[LFJ]

Refer to the pic that you posted.
Wing chun priniciples at work:
1. the two feet are balanced
2. the body is squared up
3.the axis is stable
4.there is the appropriate amount of chor ma turn
5. the elbow is on the line- controlling the path of the force
6. There is a open target-his central axis receiving the force via the chin
7.the wc guy's other hand guarding the center line.
8.his other hand is out of the picture.

On what line? The curve? Not the center line.

I see a horizontal fist, which means the elbow is popped up and off the center. To get elbow power in such a punch the motion has to follow a circular path coming from the outside.

It is not "closed" as you said, but rather quite open, meaning it is recovering nothing until you drop your elbow after landing the punch. But that's no longer the punch recovering anything itself.

All of your points cover everything but the actual motion of the arm, which unfortunately appears to be operating outside the principles of Wing Chun. Again, if it works for you, that's cool, but it's some sort of hybrid WC.

[k gledhill]

No, I get your point and I'm having some fun.

But I think this argument brings up the whole technique v principal argument.

Look at my earlier post in response to the hook. You can't argue with my logic using the principal of striking from the closest point... It just happens to be a circular motion.

It all comes down to what you see WC as.

Personally, I see it as a unique way to generate power at a very short range, be it staight punches or curved one and I use the WC engine to drive that. That's the TST lineage thing coming out in me. Obviously that's just one aspect but, to me, an extremely important one because if you can't hit hard in a striking style I suggest you try BJJ or another grappling style.

You guys are different, you change lines, focus on the vertical.... You do it a bit different from my experience.

So what's the problem if Joy, Spencer, me or guys from other lineages/styles have a slightly different take yet STILL adhere to the principals?

Fire away!

I could sense the deliberate obfuscation. So throwing hooks, knees and elbows suits your thinking , fine, who am I to stop you.

[LFJ]

When found with the hand off center on the outside, to regain the center using a hook punch (by definition not a straight line) will be wide and leave the center open. It won't regain anything unless you land the punch and then drop your elbow. But that is not simple, direct, or efficient.

Instead, as the action is done in Biu-ji as I know it, the elbow pulls in to cut and clear the line. The fist remains vertical and turns in toward the target. Cutting across to the center it travels in a straight line until it is back on the center- elbow in and down, fist striking the target. Whatever is in the path is cut by the elbow/forearm. This is a fuk "suppressing energy" concept in carrying out the principles of the system.

Closed center line, straight line lin siu dai da, closest weapon to closest target, etc.. All of which a hook punch does not achieve.

It works in the same way the knee of the front kick cuts the line to allow the foot to follow a straight path.

In Figure 2 below, imagine the "ground" is the right side from a top view. The fist is found on the outside and needs to regain the center. So the elbow pulls inward to cover the center and cut the line for the fist to travel in a straight line to the target. The forearm will be more straight than this because this is a kicking diagram from the side view anyway. So imagine a bit.

With the elbow down the reactionary force drives straight down into the ground. It wouldn't really be visible in the diagram from the top. (It looks like it's going back to the right, because this is a kicking diagram with the knee coming up from the side view. Imagine the elbow coming in and down.) This can only be done with a vertical fist, not a horizontal one as Joy showed, which pops the elbow up and out, opening the center.

A hook punch following a curve will look more like Figure 3 which follows the curved line of the circle from a top view, but with the elbow out behind the fist (remember it's a kicking diagram so not exact).

The center is left wide open, the elbow is up and out, the power is sideways, no elbow-hip-heel connection, etc.. The reactionary force will be going back to the right side out the shoulder, not into the ground.

[k gledhill]

On what line? The curve? Not the center line.

I see a horizontal fist, which means the elbow is popped up and off the center. To get elbow power in such a punch the motion has to follow a circular path coming from the outside.

It is not "closed" as you said, but rather quite open, meaning it is recovering nothing until you drop your elbow after landing the punch. But that's no longer the punch recovering anything itself.

All of your points cover everything but the actual motion of the arm, which unfortunately appears to be operating outside the principles of Wing Chun. Again, if it works for you, that's cool, but it's some sort of hybrid WC.

Just what I would say too.

[Vajramusti]

I could sense the deliberate obfuscation. So throwing hooks, knees and elbows suits your thinking , fine, who am I to stop you.

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My my-the forms are full of elbows!

[LFJ]

My my-the forms are full of elbows!

Most elbows are in Biu-ji, again the form that breaks all the "rules" for emergency situations. At the ideal striking distance, elbows will be out of range, and if you miss you're in trouble. If you deliberately come into elbow range you'll be too close for ideal striking and may get caught in grappling.

Under normal circumstances, why should you be throwing elbows?

[k gledhill]

My my-the forms are full of elbows!

Not for the reasons you espouse. BJ elbows are primarily for breaking out of wrist grabs, a common occurrence when fighting. I cant remember the amount of times I used the raising and lowering of bg elbow to escape a preemptive controlling grab to my wrist/ man sao/leading arm in a sudden start of a fight. Once I broke the grip as I angled out of the rush or did toi ma I would strike, restrain etc...
Seeing the tip of the elbow alone is like concentrating on the finger pointing at the moon...yeah you know the rest.

[Vajramusti]

Most elbows are in Biu-ji, again the form that breaks all the "rules" for emergency situations. At the ideal striking distance, elbows will be out of range, and if you miss you're in trouble. If you deliberately come into elbow range you'll be too close for ideal striking and may get caught in grappling.

Under normal circumstances, why should you be throwing elbows?

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I am indeed sorry that some wing chun folks have not learned the proper usage of punches other than the basic punch or elbows, knees and even shoulders. The next generation could lose
much of wing chun. Close quarter motions are possible with good understanding of the axis-
the mother line.
You may not have a choice on "ideal" distance. Elbows are for close quarter work. Shoulder and finger work- even closer.Too much muscle tension or stiffness- you cant do these things.

I respect WSL-but he did not issue papal bulls to be followed mechanically by true believers. I have met him and even did a little chi sao with him in San Francisco and Huston.

A real cold spell in Arizona- have to throw some cover over a young fig tree before turning in. Cheers and good night.

[k gledhill]

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I am indeed sorry that some wing chun folks have not learned the proper usage of punches other than the basic punch or elbows, knees and even shoulders. The next generation could lose
much of wing chun. Close quarter motions are possible with good understanding of the axis-
the mother line.
You may not have a choice on "ideal" distance. Elbows are for close quarter work. Shoulder and finger work- even closer.Too much muscle tension or stiffness- you cant do these things.

I respect WSL-but he did not issue papal bulls to be followed mechanically by true believers. I have met him and even did a little chi sao with him in San Francisco and Huston.

A real cold spell in Arizona- have to throw some cover over a young fig tree before turning in. Cheers and good night.

Equally you could be confused by Misunderstanding more than your ego will allow.