wing chun and competition

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have found it very difficult in the past to get people to come in and let you learn against their specialty. Because you are dealing with unfamiliar partners and unfamiliar reactions the risk of injury is higher and there is usually minimal payout.

It's a win-lose proposition, who would want to take the lose side?

I've found the total opposite when it comes to any sport combat system like BJJ or MMA or any other for that fact.

[LaRoux]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is true. Requires great control.
When a grappler is going for a takedown- a weak effort is not enough to stop him- yet you do not want to hurt your guest.Good noggins are necessary on both sides to learn..

BJJ has been incorporating this type of training for almost a century now. MMA has been doing it for 30+ years now.

They don't seem to have problems with it.

[Wayfaring]

I have found it very difficult in the past to get people to come in and let you learn against their specialty. Because you are dealing with unfamiliar partners and unfamiliar reactions the risk of injury is higher and there is usually minimal payout.

It's a win-lose proposition, who would want to take the lose side?

I find this to be more of a cultural or mental barrier in WCK and possibly other traditionally oriented arts than it is in the combat oriented arts. Many traditional teachers will nix the idea and won't permit any $$ flowing outside the school especially.

If you're talking BJJ, then Andrew is right - privates are the key. Most BJJ black belts will do a group private lesson. For noobs a cheaper option is a purple belt and up - could get a great deal on that kind of thing. Preventing takedowns - with the state of wrestling currently I'm sure you could get a very high level wrestler for very very cheap for a private for that. And if you ask them to teach you drills to develop the skill, then your $$ on the private will stretch a lot ****her. Get multiple people together, pool $$ and have very specific goals. Boxers also - sheesh good amateur boxers don't even have the mentality of getting paid to teach.

Of course if people have douchebag attitudes of superiority rather than really wanting to learn that's unproductive and lends more to getting hurt. But that's just life, no?

[Wayfaring]

It is a much different proposition to learn some of their specialty on your own and then try to come up with counters from your first style. I was speaking only to the point of trying to hire/find sparring/training partners from different disciplines.

I would say this approach has much greater success in understanding their style, but in my experience doesn't usually achieve the aim of sharpening your primary style against it.

Interesting. Want to kick some specific ideas around offline?

[Eric_H]

BJJ has been incorporating this type of training for almost a century now. MMA has been doing it for 30+ years now.

They don't seem to have problems with it.

I can't speak to BJJ, cause I haven't studied it, but the NHB grappling i did emphasized going with the takedown and rolling with the guy. This is much safer at high velocity than WC's response of concussive bridges to the neck, head and arm.

[Eric_H]

I find this to be more of a cultural or mental barrier in WCK and possibly other traditionally oriented arts than it is in the combat oriented arts. Many traditional teachers will nix the idea and won't permit any $$ flowing outside the school especially.

Yep.

Of course if people have douchebag attitudes of superiority rather than really wanting to learn that's unproductive and lends more to getting hurt. But that's just life, no?

This is also a factor, and it's hard to avoid. We're martial artists, usually means that we're broken in some sense, big egos, inferiority complex, repressed nerd rage, seen it all at this point. The mental issues that go along with being a good sparring partner and finding good ones even inside your own school deserves a thread all it's own.

Interesting. Want to kick some specific ideas around offline?

Sure, hit me up on FB.

[anerlich]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "explore". There are some guys on here that have completed the Wing Chun system in a couple lineages. There's really not a lot to it. It should be simple to learn. It just takes time perfecting it.

I've completed the grading system under Rick Spain.

Does that mean I, or he, for that matter, have learned everything there is to learn about it, or maxed out our potential in the system? F$ck no.

[anerlich]

This is also a factor, and it's hard to avoid. We're martial artists, usually means that we're broken in some sense, big egos, inferiority complex, repressed nerd rage, seen it all at this point. The mental issues that go along with being a good sparring partner and finding good ones even inside your own school deserves a thread all it's own.

You make good points, Eric.

[hulkout]

I'm not a WC guy, so feel free to ignore me, but I'll give you an outsiders opinion. I know this is generalizing and doesn't apply to everyone, but I think a hindrance to using WC in the ring is that most/many WC folks only spar other WC folks.

If you want to go into K1, your going to have to spar against kickboxers and adapt your art accordingly. If you want to fight MMA you'll have to adapt to it and learn ground game.

It seems like there's a resistance to adapting an art to fight in a specific element. As if it is a sign of deficiency in the art itself. I think that's a wrong way to think. We understand street fighting is different than kickboxing, is different than MMA, ect. If you want to fight in sanda you'll have to adapt, not only to the rule set, but to using your art against the type of fighters your likely to find in the sanda ring.

I feel like the ability to adapt an art to different environments shows strength in the fighter, not weakness in the art. You got to be realistic and understand you will need to make changes and adjustments, but I think that can be done without forgoing the core integrity of a style.

If you want to fight Muay Thai rules and only spar Olympic TKD guys, this makes no sense. You need to spar with MT guys and you'll have to adapt yourself to defend against the techs you will come against in their element.
You will also have to adapt some of your training methods accordingly.

Another problem is that a lot of Wing Chun guys train too much Chi Sao and dead drills. I'm not saying Chi Sao is useless. On the contrary, it's essential to really understanding and using the system. But you have to train and practice fighting in a real way as well. Otherwise, the training is just too far removed from the feel of real fighting. Chi Sao is for sensitivity and developing the attributes needed for fighting. It is NOT real fighting like some people seem to think. In a real fight, it probably accounts for less than a half second. Of course that can be a crucial half second, but there's far more to fighting than just that. And Chi Sao competitions are beyond stupid. If you don't know the feel of fighting someone for real, you won't be able to suddenly rise to the occasion when it happens. This is what far too many Wing Chun guys do. Even other things like body conditioning are ignored by the vast majority. The bottom line is that if you really want to learn how to fight, you're going to have to go through some pain. If you think that you can just do forms and tons of Chi Sao and you're ready for fighting, you'll learn the hard way that it's not enough.

[k gledhill]

Another problem is that a lot of Wing Chun guys train too much Chi Sao and dead drills. I'm not saying Chi Sao is useless. On the contrary, it's essential to really understanding and using the system. But you have to train and practice fighting in a real way as well. Otherwise, the training is just too far removed from the feel of real fighting. Chi Sao is for sensitivity and developing the attributes needed for fighting. It is NOT real fighting like some people seem to think. In a real fight, it probably accounts for less than a half second. Of course that can be a crucial half second, but there's far more to fighting than just that. And Chi Sao competitions are beyond stupid. If you don't know the feel of fighting someone for real, you won't be able to suddenly rise to the occasion when it happens. This is what far too many Wing Chun guys do. Even other things like body conditioning are ignored by the vast majority. The bottom line is that if you really want to learn how to fight, you're going to have to go through some pain. If you think that you can just do forms and tons of Chi Sao and you're ready for fighting, you'll learn the hard way that it's not enough.

I agree, but chi-sao is not to develop sensitivity, sensitivity is a by-product of the drills, not the goal.

[Robinhood]

I agree, but chi-sao is not to develop sensitivity, sensitivity is a by-product of the drills, not the goal.

If you look at Tai Chi, it does a better break down of what different kinds of development's there are and the order they are acquired, the word sensitivity is just a general term and over used.