WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

[BPWT]

So what if contact isn't made?????

Eh?

Of course if no contact (bridge is made) and you strike and hit the target... great. But how many times have you fought, or sparred, and moved around picking off a guy with strikes while none of his get even close to you, and thus you've had no need to bridge an attacking arm? Or how many times have you landed multiple strikes and the opponent never intercepted any of them?



I think, to be honest, you should stick to the boxing gym and do what they are telling you. Stick with that skipping, Graham.

[BPWT]

Ps. Have you looked up the meaning of Chum Kiu, yet?

[Graham H]

Eh?

Of course if no contact (bridge is made) and you strike and hit the target... great.

yawn yawn....I'll tell you this. When I gor sau with people from other lineages now I can ruin them because they are always going for my arms. You do the math!

But how many times have you fought, or sparred, and moved around picking off a guy with strikes while none of his get even close to you, and thus you've had no need to bridge an attacking arm?

Quite a few until I met PB and his students

Or how many times have you landed multiple strikes and the opponent never intercepted any of them?

I can only speak for myself and I'm not being arrogant but in my experience nobody has ever been able to stand up after the second one. I have been quite fortunate.

I think, to be honest, you should stick to the boxing gym and do what they are telling you. Stick with that skipping, Graham.

Whatever. You don't know me or what I do. There are a lot of people very happy with it and I'm teaching Teachers from other lineages so I have nothing to worry about especially not somebody from one of the worse lineages..............in my opinion of course.

[Graham H]

Ps. Have you looked up the meaning of Chum Kiu, yet?

Yes the meaning of chum kiu is about fighting the easiest way and direct route to the target. The bridge/path is the line you must take. The whole strategy of Ving Tsun lies within CK but most see the path/bridge being the arm.


Can you now see your problem?

[BPWT]

Bridge Seeking. That is a definition from WSL lineage - from a guy who speaks Cantonese.

I'm not sure how to say in Cantonese, "Bridge Seeking Form that Teaches Us To Search For The Bridge We Don't Use in Our lineage."

You'll have to give that translation to me.

[BPWT]

LOL. Kiu, my friend.

KIU!

Do you now see the problem?

The bridge and the path are not the same thing.

You are confused. Really confused (to use your usual style)

[Graham H]

Bridge Seeking. That is a definition from WSL lineage - from a guy who speaks Cantonese.

I'm not sure how to say in Cantonese, "Bridge Seeking Form that Teaches Us To Search For The Bridge We Don't Use in Our lineage."

You'll have to give that translation to me.

Yes and the bridge is????????????????.........................an attacking line.

[Graham H]

LOL. Kiu, my friend.

KIU!

Do you now see the problem?

trouble with you is mate is that you take the translations as literal westernized words. You are wrong!

There are 7 tones in cantonese. The same word can mean 7 different things.

I'm getting bored now

[Graham H]

In the end you will be wrong BPWT. You know how I know???........because Leung Ting is wrong.

I have to go now.

Laters

[BPWT]

Yes and the bridge is????????????????.........................an attacking line.

WTF are you on about?

An attacking line is just that, a line of attack. Usually defined as an open line (for obvious reasons)

A bridge is when you've made physical contact - usually meaning with one of your limbs.

It is no wonder you disagree with everyone not in your lineage - you have definitions all mixed up.

[Graham H]

WTF are you on about?

An attacking line is just that, a line of attack. Usually defined as an open line (for obvious reasons)

A bridge is when you've made physical contact - usually meaning with one of your limbs.

It is no wonder you disagree with everyone not in your lineage - you have definitions all mixed up.

No its not! I used to think the same as you.

THE BRIDGE IS NOT THE ****ING ARM!!!!!!!!!!

You don't even understand Chum Kiu mate so how can you know WTF I'm on about? You have LT's chum kiu and he is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Game over now!!!

Good bye!

[LFJ]

@BPWT;

Imagine you want to cross a river. Ideally you want to just go straight over the bridge. But you're just walking along the river bank where you can't cross. So you must search for the bridge, i.e. find the pathway to the other side.

The open line is the bridge. Crossing it is hitting the opponent. What you are calling the bridge is the obstacle. You can't cross there because something is in the way. You have to redirect it or somehow deal with it. If that's the case, how can it be a bridge to the other side? You can't cross it. The open line is the figurative bridge you must search for. You're looking to build a physical bridge that can't even be crossed.

[k gledhill]

Well the opponent of course. If the cog is moved abruptly it has a correlating effect on the cns, much like when you slip and catch yourself before falling over there is a pause, a break in movement as you clamp down and reassess your proprioception – it’s a natural response and it’s involuntary.

In essence the theory is that if you can repeatedly do that to someone they have a limited ability to respond as their timing will always be late and this is the reason otherwise skilful people look like muppets when drilling with the likes of PB.

No one is intentionally striking the arms, hitting the centre directly has a better effect obviously but if the arms are in the way you strike at the centre through them to create the gap both physically and temporally to get in a potential ko. For instance a well applied pak sao should unbalance the person you apply it on.

We all know ballistic force (faat geng) in general is developed on the dummy and exercised via chi sao in WC/WT/VT (hope I have all the acronyms) it’s a required attribute to applying the art and yes good structure can mitigate the effects but that’s the whole issue really, what do you want to concentrate on? For me developing my faat geng to be stronger than your structure is where it’s at and one of the reasons for the whole chi sao drill.

As for contact free timing, when someone hits you in earnest contact is provided whether you like it or not all you need to do is engage on an appropriate line, just like WSL said - easy to learn hard to master.

Dave

Good post..,,,,

[BPWT]

Of course, a bridge could be your fist hitting my face... but you guys crack me up - do you look at how the word Kiu is used?

But sure, Leung Ting is wrong and PB is right. Which means Graham is correct when he says that "a bridge is an attacking line."

Maybe you should also write to David Peterson, to explain his error. He, like PB, learned from WSL (DP, largely in Hong Kong, I believe...and in WSL's native language).

Here is what DP says in his intro to describing the CK form.

It is surely wrong, right? (Kevin and Graham). I mean here DP talks about "borrowing energy", "contact already existing", "contact manipulated", "bridge seeking and finding", "controlling the legs by controlling the arms", etc.


CHAM KIU (“bridge seeking”)

Probably the easiest way to view the ‘Cham Kiu’ form is via the three distinct applications/interpretations of the ‘Bong Sau’ (“upper-arm deflection”) action, each section emphasising a different idea:

1st section – ‘Yi Bong’ (“shifting Bong”) which teaches the concept of “borrowing the opponent’s energy” to disperse/redirect an attack. It implies that contact already exists and this contact is then manipulated by ‘Bong/Lan Sau’ and stance shifting/pivoting to reposition for further attack.

2nd section – ‘Paau Bong’ (“throwing Bong”) which teaches the concept of “making contact” when the hands are not already in a favourable position. In other words, it is a literal introduction to the concept of ‘Cham Kiu’ (“bridge seeking/finding”). It also teaches the concepts and skills associated with offensive footwork (and by reversing the action, defensive footwork, specifically as it needs to be applied with ‘Bong Sau’ which, by its nature, requires a specialised action quite distinct from other techniques), kicking (‘Dang Geuk’ – “ascending kick”) and the idea of always “chasing one’s kicks” so that the opponent is constantly kept under threat, and recovery in the form of regaining the centre (‘Chau Kuen’ – “whipping punch” ) and refacing the centre (‘Yi Ying Sau’ – “recover shape/form hand”).

3rd section – ‘Dai Bong’ (“low-action Bong”) which provides a “two-in-one” interpretation of the ‘Bong Sau’ for protecting the lower gates, one for when attacked on a lower line while the hands are down, the other for controlling the balance/stance when dragged out of position. This section also introduces the concept of controlling the legs by controlling the arms, a variation on the basic kicking action (‘Waang Geuk’ –“horizontal kick”), and yet another application of recovery whereby the ‘Dan Sau’ (“springing hand”) action of the Siu Nim Tau form is applied to the punch to complete the form.

[LFJ]

Of course, a bridge could be your fist hitting my face...

No, that is a bridge crossed...