Sport competition and self defense environments...

[LaRoux]

I never said SD was Easy to learn or apply, you've misunderstood or misquoted..

It takes work and dedication, but can be done in short amounts of time, I've experienced it, so who's to say it isn't true for me?

My experience is only a story for you, and visa versa..

J

Easy or short... either way is still invalid for anyone.

[LaRoux]

What I am talking about is Development of basic tools, not application, one can develop what they need to know and do in SD situations quickly, to apply it successfully is the variable, and is dependant on many variables,,, so in other words no one knows if it will work successfully vs someone attacking full force until it happens for them..but learning/developing something in the area of SD will have some effect on how they are able to handle it vs. nothing at all...

J

You can develop basic sport fighting tools (not application) quickly also. Just as with self-defense tools, the basic/quick version won't get you very far, though.

[Subitai]

This topic again?

I'm surprised nobody has used the cliche' "the 90's called to want it's topic back"

Or the Oldie but goodie; " A BJJ guy or insert any grappler (here) could also gut you like a fish with a knife...that doesn't take any sort of special training"

Mabe best of them all, "Opinions are like a-holes we all have them".


I often speak the difference between them both and like the a-hole that I can be...I have my own opinions just like you guys.


Sport and SD...are not the same. Both can give you training and discipline blah blah ect. But never in my experiences were they even close to eachother.

This is especially true of the Mindset for each case... Mental game or lack of it is a huge deal. But it makes all the difference in the world.

** At this point if you disagree with me...i'm cool with that.

But so I can't be labeled a Troll, i'll at least state a couple of my reasons why:

In any of my street fights, I never had the chance to really prepare...at least not in the way I did when I was getting paid to prepare for a fight.

I never got to watch videos of my opponent and study his previous fights.

I never asked the dude if he had a physical or was he HIV negative.

My thoughts in a few fights were, " Holy SH!T somebodies really going to get hurt here man...this is NO JOKE"

I never thought or worried about that in the ring. I could take risks and concentrate on just trying to win. There were no other factors distracting me...like where are my friends and how i'm going to get home or outta this mess. Or where's my car, the nearest exit...sh!t like that.

Fact is...you don't even move the same in a real world environment, You could be drunk or overly lucid and acutely aware of your surroundings but almost to a fault. You have no thoughts of conserving Gas or what is the Referee going to do.

Worst of all, if it's just YOU and HIM, mano a mano and nobody is around and no cameras... You can get the "I'm going to f*&k-ing Kill you" possessing your thoughts and that's when people get killed. Mabe not immediately, but I come back on your a$$ when you're knocked out and finish you.

Mindset baby, it affects the physical and no they are not the same.

2 bits, "O"

[LaRoux]

Sport and SD...are not the same. Both can give you training and discipline blah blah ect. But never in my experiences were they even close to eachother.

They are both the same, as well as different.

They are different in that sport is a more controlled environment with rules and some beforehand knowledge.


They are the same in that effective training for each follows most of the same principles.

[sihing]

You can develop basic sport fighting tools (not application) quickly also. Just as with self-defense tools, the basic/quick version won't get you very far, though.

You make huge assumptions...how do you know how far someone's training/intent/abilities will go, you can tell the future?? lol..

To say it simply, training in something is better than training in nothing in my book, but no one know's the outcome or effectiveness of the training until the SD encounter happens. That's it.. You, nor anyone here can state any different or no the future of an encounter that hasn't happened yet. All one can do is prepare to the best of their abilities, and that my friend is up to the individual to determine, not you or I.

J

[sihing]

This topic again?

I'm surprised nobody has used the cliche' "the 90's called to want it's topic back"

Or the Oldie but goodie; " A BJJ guy or insert any grappler (here) could also gut you like a fish with a knife...that doesn't take any sort of special training"

Mabe best of them all, "Opinions are like a-holes we all have them".


I often speak the difference between them both and like the a-hole that I can be...I have my own opinions just like you guys.


Sport and SD...are not the same. Both can give you training and discipline blah blah ect. But never in my experiences were they even close to eachother.

This is especially true of the Mindset for each case... Mental game or lack of it is a huge deal. But it makes all the difference in the world.

** At this point if you disagree with me...i'm cool with that.

But so I can't be labeled a Troll, i'll at least state a couple of my reasons why:

In any of my street fights, I never had the chance to really prepare...at least not in the way I did when I was getting paid to prepare for a fight.

I never got to watch videos of my opponent and study his previous fights.

I never asked the dude if he had a physical or was he HIV negative.

My thoughts in a few fights were, " Holy SH!T somebodies really going to get hurt here man...this is NO JOKE"

I never thought or worried about that in the ring. I could take risks and concentrate on just trying to win. There were no other factors distracting me...like where are my friends and how i'm going to get home or outta this mess. Or where's my car, the nearest exit...sh!t like that.

Fact is...you don't even move the same in a real world environment, You could be drunk or overly lucid and acutely aware of your surroundings but almost to a fault. You have no thoughts of conserving Gas or what is the Referee going to do.

Worst of all, if it's just YOU and HIM, mano a mano and nobody is around and no cameras... You can get the "I'm going to f*&k-ing Kill you" possessing your thoughts and that's when people get killed. Mabe not immediately, but I come back on your a$$ when you're knocked out and finish you.

Mindset baby, it affects the physical and no they are not the same.

2 bits, "O"

Excellent post, my experience exactly...

J

[LaRoux]

Worst of all, if it's just YOU and HIM, mano a mano and nobody is around and no cameras... You can get the "I'm going to f*&k-ing Kill you" possessing your thoughts and that's when people get killed. Mabe not immediately, but I come back on your a$$ when you're knocked out and finish you.

Spoken like someone with very little self-defense experience or knowledge.

[LaRoux]

Excellent post, my experience exactly...

J

Which kind of proves my point about your lack of knowledge in this area.

[Grumblegeezer]

This topic again? ....

Yeah, it is a bit old... but anyway, could you elaborate a bit on what you said below? I'm not sure I got what you were getting at. Loss of self control? You wanting to kill the other guy when he's knocked out?

One guy I know who has more "street experience" than I would ever want to have says you you've got to have that mind set, but keep it on a leash. Like a big, bad dog.

Worst of all, if it's just YOU and HIM, mano a mano and nobody is around and no cameras... You can get the "I'm going to f*&k-ing Kill you" possessing your thoughts and that's when people get killed. Mabe not immediately, but I come back on your a$$ when you're knocked out and finish you.

[sihing]

Which kind of proves my point about your lack of knowledge in this area.

Lol, you make me laugh man Such as poignant statement with no knowledge to back it up..

You could be absolutely right or absolutely wrong, you'll never know bud

James

[Subitai]

Yeah, it is a bit old... but anyway, could you elaborate a bit on what you said below? I'm not sure I got what you were getting at. Loss of self control? You wanting to kill the other guy when he's knocked out?

One guy I know who has more "street experience" than I would ever want to have says you you've got to have that mind set, but keep it on a leash. Like a big, bad dog.

I'm not saying you have to be a bad a$$ or be brave...heck everyone's afraid at some point. I'm just expressing my opinion on this


I would agree with your friend, it's just that we all have different ideas on self control.
If a person has never been a such a bad street fight that they were never once thinking "I'm going to kill this guy". God bless them because at least they don't have that memory.
The rage, that ensues is terrible and you'd be a complete a-hole if you didn't at least worry or "Check" yourself later after the adrenaline has worn down.

Dude seriously, you've never seen 2 guys throwing down so hard that they are almost in tears because they wanna kill eachother?


about the finishing thing.
Every neighborhood has it's own expression, for example: to mud-foot someone or "muddfooting" a guy is just like it sounds. Awful.

[YouKnowWho]

Very true. In our VT group we begin training techniques with a lot of compliance until the skill set is somewhat developed. Then we increase the resistance. The problem is that too often members of the same club or class don't really know how to offer meaningful resistance.

You have to use compliance component to develop your "solo skill". You then use non-compliance opponent to develop your "combo skill".

For example,

in order to develop your "foot sweep" skill, your opponent has to put weight on his leading leg on purpose (compliance). After you have swept your opponent down 1000 times, you will build your confidence on your foot sweep. After that, your opponent tries not to put weight on his leading leg (non-compliance), you will soon find out that your foot sweep won't work any more.

You then try to figure out how to:

- force your opponent to put weight on his leading leg. You start to use another move to set up your foot sweep.
- use your foot sweep as fake and set up your next move.

Now, you have just moved from your "solo skill" development stage into your "set up" development stage and "combo skill" development stage.

[Sean66]

Sport competition is a test of skill in a controlled environment.
It's a great thing, and training for competition fighting can help us to develop many attributes that may help us in a self-defense situation.

However, as many experts on the subject point out, an assault is not a test of skill. The last thing that a criminal assailant wants is a "fight". He wants nothing but a victim, and he will choose his victim, as well as the time and place of the assault, to tip the scales as much in his favor as possible, minimizing risk and maximizing results.

Your "goal" as a victim of assault is not to demonstrate your dominance through superior skill, but rather to escape without injury.

As Rory Miller points out in his book, Meditations on Violence, a criminal assault happens much closer, faster, suddenly and powerfully than most people believe. It is nasty, brutish and short and has nothing to do with the intricate chess game of timing and distance involved in competition fighting.

So, if you are training for self-defense, your training has to take the nature of criminal violence into account. Regular sparring, even at full contact, is not enough.

You have to "contextualize" your skill, putting it under pressure in situations that replicate actual assault scenarios as closely as possible. Since you still have to take safety into account, there will be flaws in this type of training as well, and you have to understand them and work with them.

I really suggest reading Miller's books. They are full of great insights, written by someone who has a very intimate knowledge of criminals and criminal violence.

[guy b.]

Good post Sean.
Thanks for the heads up on Rory Miller.

Agree, good post. It is incredibly naive to imagine that a criminal assault is going to resemble a ring fight in any way.

[sihing]

Yes, good post Sean.

A SD situation has many variables present that the competition arena does not, they share the same tools and such, but are different in intention and environment as mentioned in the previous posts. Believe this or not it is the reality..

Awareness is key in SD situations, and one can achieve effectivenss in SD situations quickly and be able to survive to live another day if that is what they want. Training for comps is about competition and winning, that is different as you are preparing to fight someone that is prepared as well, under ruled conditions. SD situations are totally different, your only intent is to survive, not beat and, where is it going to happen, whom is involved, what are the circumstances, are you impaired and are they??? The variables add up, and the intent and intensity are so much different.

VT is all about the physical side of it, allowing one to learn effective mechanics and back up structure, sensitivity, control and power generation to make it all happen once a SD situation takes place, its not meant for comps IMO, it can be adapted for it though..

J