Exposition of Original Shaolin Staff Fighting

[Tainan Mantis]

Yecha is like a vampire, forked teeth.

A recording of the martial arts of China Mid 16th century is called Jiang Nan Jing Luo. It gives some details that are missing from Shaolin's own book on the subject.
Shaolin's Yecha Staff is specifically named after the "Sea Patrolling Yecha." A detail not obvious from Shaolin's own book on the subject.

The techniques are divided into the Greater and Lesser Sea Patrolling Yecha.
These technques include using the staff as a staff as well as sword and for using counter spear.

The Yang Family spear was alternately named Liu He Qiang-Six Harmony Spear, as well as other names no longer in popular use. This was documented in the Mid-Ming.

[RenDaHai]

I guess the question is...just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms?

More importantly...how were these arts trained back then? I've seen staff training in China that involves paired training that more closely resembles Japanese formal paired kata, but teachers in China seem much more content with teaching solo taolu.

Well probably not the same forms no, but the same name has persisted and probably a lot of the technique.

The actual taolu 'YinSHouGunYiLu' is represented in the text. I intend to compare this with the current versions around song shan.

As to training he mentions competition.

He is also asked a question saying that 'The form does not seem a practical method of training' and he answers it is to gain good control over the staff, a steady grip and fluidity and ease of movement.

Interestingly he also says that a lot of the techniques cannot be used in battle since in formation many of the transformations cannot be used. If we refine to just battle technique there are really only a few.

[RenDaHai]

Shaolin's Yecha Staff is specifically named after the "Sea Patrolling Yecha." A detail not obvious from Shaolin's own book on the subject.

That is interesting. No, he doesn't mention that in this book. The YeCha is specifically buddhist terminology for a type of 'fairy/spirit/nymph/demon' type creature associated with nature, forrest or rivers or mountains etc which are usually benevolent. However on occasion they can also be malevolent.

I assume the name is to infer the magical element of the staff. I think the name YeCha is related to the name FengMo (crazy demon/crazy magic), also a common shaolin staff name. Interestingly the name 'FengMo YeCha Gun' is also common suggesting a shared heritage.

[RenDaHai]

Main Zhang Duanda, Cotton Palm Close Strikes, still exists as a style in China.
I have seen some of the routines.

But other books from the 1600s about Shaolin martial arts all mention a Yue Jia (Yue Fei Family, meaning his army) Duan Da.

Mianzhang is still used as a name in Shaolin forms, though it is rare.

YueJiaQuan has many very different types around Henan, I have encountered it before. There is a specifically YueJia XinYi Quan which uses Songshan form characteristics in a village near ZhengZhou. I have yet to visit this place.

[RenDaHai]

On the spear,

Clearly at the time in Shaolin they practiced the spear a lot, since many of the staff techniques are designed specifically to defeat the spear.

Cheng mentions that during battle formation many of the changes cannot be used. As such in formation fighting I suspect there is very little difference between the major spear styles. Only a few of the major techniques will be useful.

Cheng also wrote a book on Yang family Spear. He mentions techniques of BaQiangMu, and LiuHeFa.

[bawang]

I guess the question is...just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms?

they are not the same forms. the manual describes the forms.

I've always heard Yangjia qiang and Liuhe qiang are interchangable terms, but when you look at huge assortment of forms with those names it seems not to be true. On the other hand, filter out some of the flashy opera moves and they boil down to the same handful of techniques and strategies.

six harmony are six solo drills of yang family spear.

More importantly...how were these arts trained back then?

attacking poles, sparring with soft sticks, sparring with cotton pointed spears

[RenDaHai]

BaWang,

Is this the section of the book you were referring to in our previous argument? About fist practice only beginning around this time?

[bawang]

BaWang,

Is this the section of the book you were referring to in our previous argument? About fist practice only beginning around this time?

its funny that you guys try to beef up your form and lineage cred by being mentioned in this book.

if you read the book closely you will realize the book actually brings shaolin kung fu great shame. it collected every single shaolin staff technique. and modern shaolin staff contains almost none.

[Tainan Mantis]

six harmony are six solo drills of yang family spear.

Before WW2 at Qing Dao Guo Shu Guan Six Harmony Staff was taught.
It is a collection of two person forms strung together into a long sequence.
Most students learned only the solo sequence. But, Master Wu Shaolin (not the shaolin temple) brought the two person sequence to Taiwan and taught a few people. Shi Zhengzhong and Yang Fengshi, my shifu and uncle are the only two I know of.

Here is the two person sequence performed by me and a student

Six Harmony Staff Vs Staff

The techniques combine sword and spear with staff though it is all trained with staff.

Then, the sequences are broken down into short parts for partner practice.

[RenDaHai]

its funny that you guys try to beef up your form and lineage cred by being mentioned in this book.

if you read the book closely you will realize the book actually brings shaolin kung fu great shame. it collected every single shaolin staff technique. and modern shaolin staff contains almost none.

I don't think so. It is not extremely clearly written and he doesn't actually introduce all the techniques he mentions, but a fair amount of what I see is familier. It is going to take me a while to match these techniques up with the modern versions and names since, as I say, the manual is not extremely clear. But I think a lot of it will be represented, certainly some techniques are immediately familiar.

Anyway, I want this thread to be more about the actual techniques, forms and history presented in the book than an argument between us. That said I would like to know if this is the passage you were thinking of in our earlier argument because if not I have missed something.

[Tainan Mantis]

Cheng mentions that during battle formation many of the changes cannot be used.

Yes, general Qi Jiguang of that same era says the same:

An awe-inspiring well arranged display of military force with hundreds or thousands of soldiers in a platoon moving forward makes it impossible for the brave to rush to the front or the cowardly to hide in the rear. As the enemy troops arrange their spears or swords to attack us and we return the attack all the soldiers move together as a single unit. The platoon shape is so dense and tightly packed that even a minor movement of the hand is difficult. How can it be allowed to have everybody jump and move left and right?

At this point it would only take one person to turn back and everyone would feel doubt. It would only take one person to turn around and retreat one small step and everyone would lose their confidence.

But small groups are not constrained by the rules of large battle formations.

[RenDaHai]

Here is the two person sequence performed by me and a student

Six Harmony Staff Vs Staff

Damn, wish I could access that.

In the book on the spear written by the same author (ChengZongYou) he lists LiuHeFa as six two man drills, each which contains a different pair of concepts with the spear.

[Tainan Mantis]

The actual taolu 'YinSHouGunYiLu' is represented in the text. I intend to compare this with the current versions around song shan.

I have done that and have found no relationship.
Here is a portion of Yin Shou Gun
My version is called 18 moves of Shaolin. The method recorded by Cheng Zengyou is longer.

Yin Shou Gun

[Tainan Mantis]

Damn, wish I could access that.

There is a program to access youtube from China.
Do you need help?

[RenDaHai]

There is a program to access youtube from China.
Do you need help?

Thanks, but I use a Mac and the program doesn't work and VPN is too slow here in Dengfeng to be worth it.