Inside the Yik Kam Cho Gar vs Hendrik Santos CONTROVERSY

[Minghequan]

Hendrik,

Several posts ago on this very thread you said you were done and would not post anymore!

Not a man of your word are you Hendrik???

[theo]

zuti, you seem to ignore facts and talk without any real understanding on the subject. Wing Chun didn't exist in 1848? So you're saying Wong Wah Bo, Leung Jan, weren't doing Wing Chun? You have zero credibility after making ignorant statements such as those.

and the writing Hendrik showed, that's not what he wrote himself and is a written copy of the kuit from another branch of Cho family, not the original document. If you had any knowledge, you know that Malaysia they use simplified Chinese? On top of that, you are now accusing the entire Cho family of having fake kuit? Good luck on that one.

1. I haven't seen any fact from you ,from what we know wing chun might not even exist in 1848. All you presented here are stories without any evidence

2. Yes you do, that is the only thing you deal with, stories .I do agree you do not deal with history .Again, there isn't any real evidence to support your story. About martial arts DNA , that is your construction and it is a stupid one. If you actually knew anything about DNA you would not use that kind of comparation
. Anyway ,a thing called martial art DNA does not exist , that is your invention ,made to help you support your stories

3.Than leave the address of that museum , you know which one , and I will take it right away

Next time when you do the forgery , let Chinese person to do the writing . I have shown this to several of my friends here, they are not involved in any martial arts but they all have University level education. They all agree this was not written by Chinese , and certainly not something written in 19th Century, not to mention simplified Chinese character you put inside by mistake . Better luck next time with your "evidence"

[Hendrik]

zuti, you seem to ignore facts and talk without any real understanding on the subject. Wing Chun didn't exist in 1848? So you're saying Wong Wah Bo, Leung Jan, weren't doing Wing Chun? You have zero credibility after making ignorant statements such as those.

and the writing Hendrik showed, that's not what he wrote himself and is a written copy of the kuit from another branch of Cho family, not the original document. If you had any knowledge, you know that Malaysia they use simplified Chinese? On top of that, you are now accusing the entire Cho family of having fake kuit? Good luck on that one.

Lots of people love to act as an expert on what they are clueless and use nonsense to play China Expert.
Who cares about simplified chinese or taiwan chinese characters. There are plenty of buddhist sutra which are printed in simplified chinese characters. Does those sutras fake? It is just too much to make senseless conclusion . Dont waste your time



The following is from Jim Roselando who get his information directly from Kulo village and dependent of late Gm Fung Chun.



Jim Roselando

The Red Boat Era & Dr. Leung Jan

Today most do not realize that Dr. Leung Jan was not only from the Red Boat era but also trained before most Red Boat Opera members ever heard of the art of Wing Chun.

Dr. Leung Jan studied other forms of Nam Kuen as a youth but when he was a teenager (most say about 16-18) he began to study Wing Chun with Wong Wah Bo. That would have been no later than 1843! A little more than ten years before the famed Uprising and burning of the Fine Jade Flower Union.

The above fact is why Dr. Leung Jan was said to be privy to and schooled in the 1st & 2nd generation Wing Chun Kuen!

Respect to the Kung Fu King

[Minghequan]

Hendrik,

Several posts ago on this very thread you said you were done and would not post anymore!

Not a man of your word are you Hendrik???

[Hendrik]

Cho family martial arts are a combination of Choy Lay Fut and Wing Chun correct? _______

More then that. Cho family is a martial family for generation, the Cho ancestors have many styles of in depth art.




CLF is directly from the founder Chan Heung and WC from a 3rd generation inheritor Yik Kam correct? _____

I am not sure about Chan Heung,
However we do known The Cho and CLF is very close related in the Taiping uprising era. They are anti Qing people.

Not sure what do you mean by 3rd generation inheritor.
Yik kam is a red boat opera actor involve in the red boat uprising of China.




Why do you place more emphasis on one ancestor over the other? _______

dont know what you mean. Yik kam is the person who is responsible to bring wck into Cho Family. My inheritance from The Cho family is wck not CLF
And Wck is a not CLF or other arts.




Why do you disregard Chan Heungs influence and replace his importance with Emei? _______


I am talking Wing Chun Kuen of Yik Kam. Wck Got nothing to do with CLF. I dont practice CLF.
Emei 12 zhuang is the mother art of Yik Kam WCK.


Is CLF not a worthy source in your opinion? _______

Not related to Yik kam wck.



If CLF wasn't an important aspect why are all the ancillary forms based on CLF? _______


CLF is the major driving force in Taiping army, but
A Different art not related to Yik kam wing chun kuen I practice.





Did you know that the Fut in CLF has it's roots in Tibet? ______

Could be but that is beyond my field.




I find that very interesting don't you? _____


My focus is only in wing chun kuen.



Seems to me I wrote a little something about that. ______

Your sharing is always great.

[zuti car]

zuti, you seem to ignore facts and talk without any real understanding on the subject. Wing Chun didn't exist in 1848? So you're saying Wong Wah Bo, Leung Jan, weren't doing Wing Chun? You have zero credibility after making ignorant statements such as those.

and the writing Hendrik showed, that's not what he wrote himself and is a written copy of the kuit from another branch of Cho family, not the original document. If you had any knowledge, you know that Malaysia they use simplified Chinese? On top of that, you are now accusing the entire Cho family of having fake kuit? Good luck on that one.

And there we go again. I said , document hendrik presented was written by non Chinese person, I have never said anything about whole cho or any other family. I have jut commented on the picture hendrik posted ,it is not what he said it is ,or people used simplified characters in 19th Century?So , if there is any original document written by yik kam or any od the Cho family elders before 1950"s there would be no simplified characters . Simple as that . Who wrote what I do not know , but when , that is pretty obvious ,there is specific style of writing for every era and that is why I have consulted people who actually know to determine such a thing . Forgery ,and that is it .
About Wong Wah Bo &Co , there is no evidence of their existence , only stories . In China of that period , where everything was documented we cannot find any material evidence of their existence , no birth certificates , no grave stones , they are not mentioned in any official or unofficial documents , they cannot be found on any tax payers lists , so , their existence remains to be proven . About Leung Jan, what we know for sure is that he learned some martial arts from some opera members , that is all. What he learned we do not know and we do not even know name of the art he was practicing . It possible he is the one who named the art , or some of his students. We do not know , because there is no evidence , all we have are stories .We do not know even how many sons Leung Jan had or if he had any , again a lot of stories , no documents .At the end , you can believe anything you want ,I don't believe , I rely on hard evidence , something is there or not , speculations and old folk's stories I do not take seriously , especially when we talk about kung fu .

[Hendrik]

If this is suspected of one side would it not also logically apply to the other?

It is a multiple sources verification.

Emei 12 Zhuang writing is a large part of the Yik Kam SLT body Kung kuit.
and emei 12 zhuang writing shows up in different Cho family Wck lineages kuit.

Also,

Cho family Wck SLT , disregards of lineages or evolution , all share Emei 12 zhuang Signature.

[zuti car]

Lots of people love to act as an expert on what they are clueless and use nonsense to play China Expert.
Who cares about simplified chinese or taiwan chinese characters. There are plenty of buddhist sutra which are printed in simplified chinese characters. Does those sutras fake? It is just too much to make senseless conclusion . Dont waste your time



The following is from Jim Roselando who get his information directly from Kulo village and dependent of late Gm Fung Chun.



Jim Roselando

The Red Boat Era & Dr. Leung Jan

Today most do not realize that Dr. Leung Jan was not only from the Red Boat era but also trained before most Red Boat Opera members ever heard of the art of Wing Chun.

Dr. Leung Jan studied other forms of Nam Kuen as a youth but when he was a teenager (most say about 16-18) he began to study Wing Chun with Wong Wah Bo. That would have been no later than 1843! A little more than ten years before the famed Uprising and burning of the Fine Jade Flower Union.

The above fact is why Dr. Leung Jan was said to be privy to and schooled in the 1st & 2nd generation Wing Chun Kuen!

Respect to the Kung Fu King

Of course hendrik,Chinese people do not know Chinese language , but you do . Highly educated Chinese cannot recognize if something was written by non Chinese, because YOU wrote it , and we all know you cannot be wrong .
About that Roselindo guy you are quoting , I would like to see some references , sources, documents ect , so I can check his claims for my self . That is why any serious scientist , when publish something, leaves references so everyone can check and verify his findings . Of course , if you only have some old people's stories and your imagination , you cannot leave any references. You and other "researches" can play "historians" as much as you want , the truth is , you all do not have education nor proper methods in your "research" , you are just legends collectors and imaginative writers , who lack of knowledge fill with personal desires and expectations .You are light years far from science and real research .You can be angry as much as you want , but that is the truth . How about that museum address , can you give me that finally , or you do not have it ?Be honest for once in your life , give the address or admit you do not have it , stop avoiding the answer .

[Hendrik]

And there we go again. I said , document hendrik presented was written by non Chinese person, I have never said anything about whole cho or any other family. I have jut commented on the picture hendrik posted ,it is not what he said it is ,or people used simplified characters in 19th Century?So , if there is any original document written by yik kam or any od the Cho family elders before 1950"s there would be no simplified characters . Simple as that . Who wrote what I do not know , but when , that is pretty obvious ,there is specific style of writing for every era and that is why I have consulted people who actually know to determine such a thing . Forgery ,and that is it .
About Wong Wah Bo &Co , there is no evidence of their existence , only stories . In China of that period , where everything was documented we cannot find any material evidence of their existence , no birth certificates , no grave stones , they are not mentioned in any official or unofficial documents , they cannot be found on any tax payers lists , so , their existence remains to be proven . About Leung Jan, what we know for sure is that he learned some martial arts from some opera members , that is all. What he learned we do not know and we do not even know name of the art he was practicing . It possible he is the one who named the art , or some of his students. We do not know , because there is no evidence , all we have are stories .We do not know even how many sons Leung Jan had or if he had any , again a lot of stories , no documents .At the end , you can believe anything you want ,I don't believe , I rely on hard evidence , something is there or not , speculations and old folk's stories I do not take seriously , especially when we talk about kung fu .

紙上談兵。 想入非非

[Hendrik]

So is it safe to assume that this is a unique trait isolated to Cho family as the Emei kuit is not present in any other branch (aside from vague similarity) of Wing Chun?

I don't assume for others,


Yik kam SLT set and kuit within Cho family , which develop body Kung and applications , is a part of 1848 red boat WCK.

[Hendrik]

I don't know much.

But I do know you are full of it. And love to play China Expert 中國通 on subject you are clueless.

Of course hendrik,Chinese people do not know Chinese language , but you do . Highly educated Chinese cannot recognize if something was written by non Chinese, because YOU wrote it , and we all know you cannot be wrong .
About that Roselindo guy you are quoting , I would like to see some references , sources, documents ect , so I can check his claims for my self . That is why any serious scientist , when publish something, leaves references so everyone can check and verify his findings . Of course , if you only have some old people's stories and your imagination , you cannot leave any references. You and other "researches" can play "historians" as much as you want , the truth is , you all do not have education nor proper methods in your "research" , you are just legends collectors and imaginative writers , who lack of knowledge fill with personal desires and expectations .You are light years far from science and real research .You can be angry as much as you want , but that is the truth . How about that museum address , can you give me that finally , or you do not have it ?Be honest for once in your life , give the address or admit you do not have it , stop avoiding the answer .

[zuti car]

I don't know much.

But I do know you are full of it. And love to play China Expert 中國通 on subject you are clueless.

Yup .You really don't know much .
I am clueless , on the other hand , you have all the answers .
My poor hendrik, you are really something special . You come here and insult all the people presenting a bunch of forgeries , thinking that if it is written in Chinese all will buy it without any question . Do you really think people are that stupid ? Do you really think you are smarter than everybody else ? About China expert thing , how long did you live in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong or Macao ? And one more thing, the address, you know which one ?

[Daniel Fong]

Of course hendrik,Chinese people do not know Chinese language , but you do . Highly educated Chinese cannot recognize if something was written by non Chinese, because YOU wrote it , and we all know you cannot be wrong .
About that Roselindo guy you are quoting , I would like to see some references , sources, documents ect , so I can check his claims for my self . That is why any serious scientist , when publish something, leaves references so everyone can check and verify his findings . Of course , if you only have some old people's stories and your imagination , you cannot leave any references. You and other "researches" can play "historians" as much as you want , the truth is , you all do not have education nor proper methods in your "research" , you are just legends collectors and imaginative writers , who lack of knowledge fill with personal desires and expectations .You are light years far from science and real research .You can be angry as much as you want , but that is the truth . How about that museum address , can you give me that finally , or you do not have it ?Be honest for once in your life , give the address or admit you do not have it , stop avoiding the answer .

No people in Cho's family know any emei, even his sifu Cho Hung Choi too. There is no emei in ykwc in Yik Kam time. There is no emei in ykwc while desending in Cho's family till today. The emei term has just been introduced by Hendrik Santos today.

He can change the wording of the SCWC kuit and make it emei like openly. He can change SCWC 1890 document to 1894 document openly. Does he prove his ykwc kuit not being modified to look like emei before bringing out to the public ? Why his kuit is being so different from the Cho Gar ?

Without emei, Yik Kam still practiced it, Leung Jan still practiced it, Wong Wah Boh still practiced it, Leung Yee Di still practiced it, YipMan still practiced it. Yuen Kay Shan still practiced it, Bruce Lee still practiced it...............

More, TCMA emphasis a lot on body kung. AS the one long set split to 3 forms set, will the kung part be totally drop and just concentrate on the applications only? In order to promote his Hendrik ykwc and emei, he did say bad a lot on other wck lineages including Cho's family ykwc without emei, not doing any wck.

[zuti car]

No people in Cho's family know any emei, even his sifu Cho Hung Choi too. There is no emei in ykwc in Yik Kam time. There is no emei in ykwc while desending in Cho's family till today. The emei term has just been introduced by Hendrik Santos today.

He can change the wording of the SCWC kuit and make it emei like openly. He can change SCWC 1890 document to 1894 document openly. Does he prove his ykwc kuit not being modified to look like emei before bringing out to the public ? Why his kuit is being so different from the Cho Gar ?

Without emei, Yik Kam still practiced it, Leung Jan still practiced it, Wong Wah Boh still practiced it, Leung Yee Di still practiced it, YipMan still practiced it. Yuen Kay Shan still practiced it, Bruce Lee still practiced it...............

More, TCMA emphasis a lot on body kung. AS the one long set split to 3 forms set, will the kung part be totally drop and just concentrate on the applications only? In order to promote his Hendrik ykwc and emei, he did say bad a lot on other wck lineages including Cho's family ykwc without emei, not doing any wck.

He is a fraud and a liar , I have proved that on one simple example .

[anerlich]

The traditional Chinese martial arts community is watching

I doubt the wider traditional Chinese martial arts community is doing any such thing, except perhaps in horrified fascination .