is there ground fighting and grabling and breaking bones on the ground in KungFu..?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist



So, don't disreguard any technique until you have applied it in a live situation. I have also applied eye jabs (gouges) in real situations and they do work.

What? You're the first person in history to be poked in the eye? It's not the magic pill the desperate want it to be.

[Starchaser107]

it's not as easy as you might think to win a fight with a tech such an eye gouge , a throat poke , or a groin kick... these are basic nothings that anyone with or without martial arts training can do.

I've seen people take such strikes and keep going. its not always gonna be the case, alot of times it might help out a little , but to think that poking someones eyes is going to always be effective is
well

dangerously nieve.

[Gangsterfist]

I definately don't rely on them, but they do freaking hurt. Like I said its not really a fight ender, but more like means to ending the fight.

[Merryprankster]

Pain compliance is the wrong answer to any question.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Pain compliance is the wrong answer to any question.

What about:

"What does Madame Severitus charge $50.00 an hour for?"

[Meat Shake]

""What does Madame Severitus charge $50.00 an hour for?""

You've stumbled into a world of large lusty women and s&m.



Eyegouges.... I got elbowed in the eye yesterday... or kneed. Im not sure. It happened on the ground... I didnt notice until I looked in the mirror. I got my nuts squashed pretty bad a couple of times, but it wouldnt end a fight. A good fighter wont even stall, just be angry.
Throat... I get my throat hit and grabbed so much its rediculous... If the person you are fighting is used to it, dont rely on it. Learn and train high percentage techniques that you can rely on to end a fight.

[MAX]

take this link for those they couldent play the clip you downlaod the divx then play the clip

http://download.com.com/3001-2139-10247467.html
http://download.com.com/3001-2139-10247467.html

[MAX]

well guy's

if i have ground fighting and grabling and breaking bones on the ground in KungFu

from the specialized arts in ground fighting like : san shue, chin na , E-chuan , and the ather styles etc
why would i go to BJJ school to learn ground fighting if i have it already in my kungfu

second thing after i learn the ground fighting in kungfu and improved my self i can go to them not just to take a fight with them but also to know there fight basic's and learn from my mistakes if there gona be any mistakes
and may be you will be beter than they are without learning BJJ

guy's don't forget that the benefit's of learning the ground fighting in kungfu it is ont just on ground ..you can also beat the grabler while you are standing up even if he is Professional because you already know the ground fighting basic's so you know his game infact you have learnd the ground fighting from KungFu art's and if he take down you would know how to get out because you are also aground fighter
and may be you beat him also on the ground

my idea guy's that there is many art's in kungfu specialized in every thing but it neeed mors hard work and more constrate on you'r game to be the best fighter

as for the two clips my opinion taht the first one i dont think he is a real kungfu fighter beacause the way he begin the fight was wrong and this mean he dosen;t know what kind of game that his opponent is playing then on the ground he couldent do any thing because he dident learn at least ground fighting basic's

the second one the same but he also dident learn ground fighting

those both clips show also the bad tactic they do they should know there opponent's and know the game of there opponent's because kungfu contain almost every thing but some of them dosent constrate on ground fighting so you need more hard work searching ,training and constrating etc etc in kunguf


thank's all

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MAX
well guy's

if i have ground fighting and grabling and breaking bones on the ground in KungFu

from the specialized arts in ground fighting like : san shue, chin na , E-chuan , and the ather styles etc
why would i go to BJJ school to learn ground fighting if i have it already in my kungfu

go train with a bjj guy, and all will be revealed...

seriously, think about it...you train kung fu, right? so you are training strikes, kicks, weapons, forms, some grappling, etc...

now you have a bjj guy who spends the same amount of time as you or more, doint nothing except grappling...


1. Do you think your ground fighting would compare to his?

2. He knows the grappler's mind, so he can definitely help you to stay on your feet while fighting a grappler.

like we said, of course you don't NEED to cross train, but it can only help.

second thing after i learn the ground fighting in kungfu and improved my self i can go to them not just to take a fight with them but also to know there fight basic's and learn from my mistakes if there gona be any mistakes
and may be you will be beter than they are without learning BJJ

that's true. However, you don't want to get bad habits ingrained... That was the line I though on. When I was in CMA, we grappled. when I started bjj and judo, I realized that not only was the stuff I was learning quite basic, I was taught some of those basics improperly...

guy's don't forget that the benefit's of learning the ground fighting in kungfu it is ont just on ground ..you can also beat the grabler while you are standing up even if he is Professional because you already know the ground fighting basic's so you know his game infact you have learnd the ground fighting from KungFu art's and if he take down you would know how to get out because you are also aground fighter
and may be you beat him also on the ground

see above about your ground knowledge vs. his. Also, these days, all mma guys are cross training in a striking style, hence the term MIXED martial arts...

[rogue]

Pain compliance is the wrong answer to any question.

Wrong, if the question was how to get Rogue to part with some of his cash it's the right answer. And I have a numbered CDT certificate to prove it.

[Unmatchable]

you guys all better fear tai chi fast wrestling it is new, hot, and groovy.

[Gangsterfist]

Inflicting pain is the idea, or concept for grappling IMO. Whether it be joint locks, breaks, submission, etc. Now, pain tolerances will vary from person to person. One of my old kung fu brothers was pretty much immune to pressure points. They just didn't hurt him that much. However, if I were to bend his arm a way it didn't go, it would hurt him.

There are other aspects, like blood chokes and air chokes. A good blood choke will knock someone out in like 4 to 7 seconds because it cuts off blood flow to the brain. Of course that will also vary from person to person.

I know I am not the most proficient grappler by any means. However, I have held my own on the ground before. The kung fu I train mostly advocates stand up fighting. They don't really train ground fighting techniques. That is not to say that some of the applications can be changed to ground fighting. They just have to be changed. Some people cannot make that connection and try it the same way as standing up.

The fact is it doesn't take much to go to the ground. No matter how well trained you are, it can still happen. Take this scenerio for example.

You are out somewhere, lets say a bar or something like it. Someone starts a fight with you and there is no way you can get out of it with out physical contact. You strike first, or counter their strik and strike (it doesn't matter) and then start beating on them. Your stand up is good so your opponet is pretty much bested. When you go for the knock out hit your opponet grabs onto you as they are falling (which is natural human reaction) and takes them down with you. Now you are on the ground. Can you still win? If you know what to do, sure, and even then you may not.

I saw something like this happen a few years ago at a bar. This guy totally out boxed his opponet and landed one nasty cross that sent his opponet falling. When the guy fell he grabbed onto both arms and took him down. The guy who got knocked down, rolled over on top (to a mount position I suppose you could call it) and started pummeling the other guy's face. Ever been hit in the head while it was up against something and has no room to snap back from the strike? It hurts real bad because you head absorbs all the energy from that strike. They guy on top, who had previously been bested standing up, won the fight because when the guy went the ground he did not know what to do.

Since there is no exact science to fighting, and no fight will ever be the same you should train all aspects. Even enviromental ones. The guy could have grabbed a beer bottle or something and smashed over the other guy's head. You need to realize this stuff can happen.

I train wing chun, and wing chun pretty much says going to the ground is bad. I agree with it, I prefer to stay on my feet, but I realize that I will not always be able to control that. So, every now and again I will wrestle around with some people who know grappling. Learn out how it works and try my best to counter it when I get taken down. Sometimes I can escape, other times I get owned. Thats just how it goes.

[MAX]

SevenStar
you say

see above about your ground knowledge vs. his. Also, these days, all mma guys are cross training in a striking style, hence the term MIXED martial arts...

then what is the benefit's of the san shue chin na e-chuan and athers are they useless??

please give me your point more clear so i can understand

[Merryprankster]

Inflicting pain is the idea, or concept for grappling IMO.

Wrong.

Control is the general CONCEPT for grappling.

For purposes of personal combat, incapacitation through that concept is the goal.

Joint locks are designed to BREAK the limb in question, causing reduced function and incapacitation. An opponent with a broken arm is a less dangerous opponent, or possibly incapacitated. An opponent with a broken leg is an ineffective opponent. An opponent who has passed out because of a choke is an ineffective opponent.

Because it is inconvenient to do such things to your training partners, we tap and release the lock prior to damage.

Pain and discomfort are side-effects, not the goal itself. DAMAGE is the goal.

Moves done for the purpose of causing pain are always the wrong answer. Moves done that incidentally cause pain because they are causing damage are the right answer.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by MAX
if i have ground fighting and grabling and breaking bones on the ground in KungFu... why would i go to BJJ school to learn ground fighting

Because there's no such thing as "having a technique." Your chinese system can have the finest ground fighting in the world in theory, but if you're not actually rolling around on the ground training it, it doesn't do you any good at all.

Why you might want to go to a BJJ school (or some other school that regularly rolls on the ground) is to get in that actual training time on the ground. If you really do have ground submissions from your chinese style, BJJ schools in particular will generally have no problem at all with you working them into your ground game during BJJ training.

Originally posted by Gansterfist
Inflicting pain is the idea, or concept for grappling IMO.

This has already been addressed, and it's trite, but - people in various states of shock (which tends to include all parties of a self-defense scenario) can be extremely resistant to pain.

Moreover, relying on pain is a "second-order" goal - you're hoping to inflict pain, which, in turn, you hope will defeat your assailant. You want "first-order" goals - you don't want some intermediary goal in between you and defeating your assailant; you want to defeat him directly and immediately.

I would add further more that "inflicting pain" isn't a very useful strategy to begin with. Is someone in overwhelming pain essentially defeated? Yes. Is someone who has been elbowed repeatedly in the cerebellum essentially defeated? Yes. These are the same sorts of questions - being, in themselves, quite useless. The question isn't whether or not elbowing someone in the cerebellum is useful, the question is how do I go about reliably elbowing my assailant in the cerebellum? The same thing goes for pain. The real issue isn't whether or not hurting your assailant is useful, it's how do you go about reliably hurting your assailant?

This is the important question. In grappling (and, I would argue, all fighting) one major answer to that question is - by maintaining superiority of position, balance, and posture. In other words, control.

If you have control, then you are free to reliably inflict pain, elbow the cerebellum, or do anything else. It's that control that you have to be worried about. If you don't have that control, then you're hoping you can inflict that pain on him quicker than he can inflict it on you. It's a gamble. And you want to gamble as little as possible when your life and well-being, or those of your loved ones, are the stakes.

Another issue with pain is that it's not an "instant stop." This is more easily understood in fencing (which I think is generally a particularly clear paradigm for understanding some aspects of martial engagements). A primary problem in duels were double-hits: you manage to impale your assailant on the end of your epee, but he's done the same to you. The success of your thrust here is little comfort in this circumstance. So in a duel you don't just want to hit the other guy, you want to hit him while not getting hit youself. The same goes for empty-hands. If I blindly swing a hook at your head at the same time you're doing the same (and if you're fighting a guy, you can bet he's gonna be doing something that's bad for you at any given moment), then we're both gonna get popped. And then I only "win" if I'm bigger, faster, and can take more punishment than you. Again, this isn't a gamble we want to take, right? The same goes for pain. Even if I do somehow manage to give you a scary dose of pain, your body's inertia isn't going to vanish, and whatever you were in the process of doing to me is still going to happen (especially since I'm all busy inflicting pain on you and so am less likely to have a decent guard ready).