Taiji training with no push hands

[lunghushan]

Well there seem to be too few schools that teach taijiquan as a fighting art. After searching around a lot I basically gave up on it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well there seem to be too few schools that teach taijiquan as a fighting art. After searching around a lot I basically gave up on it.

I don't blame you, but then you ARE in Seattle after all!! It is not likely you woud find real Tai Chi there.

[lunghushan]

I don't blame you, but then you ARE in Seattle after all!! It is not likely you woud find real Tai Chi there.

Now why is that? Does everybody know something that I don't about this place?

I can't figure out what it is about this place. Even the Krav Maga is weak here.

[One Finger Zen]

My teacher always says that first get the hang of Lao Jia Yi Lu and learn good body mechanics, and only then can push hands be practiced properly, otherwise push hands with no real taiji foundation is pretty much a waste of time and teaches bad habits. This is for the real novice taiji player, some opinions may differ on this and say as soon as you start to learn taiji, you should start to learn push hands. But with Chen Style, a lot of the martial apps are pretty apparent to the eye that is sharp enough to see.Although I agree with the former statement.

The first year I learned taiji, I first learned Xin Jia and then Wang Hai Jun started to teach my teacher so the focus was shifted to 18 form and then after that, Lao Jia Yi Lu. By then I'd been learning 1.5/2 years.

Then, since I was no longer a total novice, my teacher introduced push hands to the class. I found that the movements were easily learnable (obviously hard to master ) and my body mechanics were pretty much spot on. Knees were bent nicely (knee not going over the toes), hands kept their 'peng' and I could slightly feel the energy of the other pusher. Body on one level, bai hui 'touching the sky'. Everything moved together as one unit. So, this is why I believe that it's best to learn tui shou after gaining basic training in taiji.

Peace and Love

OFZ

[kungfujunky]

where i learn tai chi from we started with the form...and chi kung postures. we work on that for about 6 months and then when you are ready you move up to push hand training. the martial aspect is there the entire time you are learning not only the form but the push hands as well.

my teacher breaks down each move from the form and then has us practice that move in the push hands..how to set it up how to feel it coming how to deflect the strike (or yield) it is a great way to learn tai chi and what it is supposed to be for.

if your teacher doesnt do push hands or wont then i would try to find someone else to show you..or check local papers because i have seen ads for push hands practice in parks around where i live ...although with no idea of how it works it would be a dificult thing to try to pick up from strangers

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Hi all,

Question for all you taiji experts....


What are your feelings about taiji being taught without push hands training? The form and application of the forms are taught...so there is definitely a martial component...but no push hands. Am I missing out on an important principle in training?

I'm no expert and anyone on this site saying they are experts are one of the following

1) Dreaming
2) Lying and Dreaming

But yes, you are missing something.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

It seems like this kindof depends upon your definition of applications. Like a while back I got a video of the 13 form. It had this taiji form, and then the guy showed the 'applications', and they were all off of push hands. Every application was a push-hand type throw.

???

So I walked around asking people, about their taiji applications. One conversation went like this:

Sifu: "Taiji applications are all push-hands."
Me: "Then why does your form have a fist in it?"
Sifu: "There is no striking in taiji."
Me: "Then why does your form have a fist in it?"
Sifu: "Taiji applications are all push-hands."
Me; "Then why does your form have a fist in it? There must be striking if there if fist, right?"
Sifu: "The form is just an exercise. There are no striking techniques in taiji."

That's basically the B.S. you'll find most everywhere. So if you say that taiji applications are all push-hands, well, then I guess, maybe yes then you will have to have push-hands.

Sounds like someone studied some other chinese marital art and learned the forms for videos and now calls themselves a Tai Chi instructor. Just my opinion.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Now why is that? Does everybody know something that I don't about this place?

I can't figure out what it is about this place. Even the Krav Maga is weak here.

It's that ****able weather you have there. Who would want to do an outdoor Tai Chi seminar in the rain and gloom.

Bill Cosby said it perfectly back in the late 60s. When the sun comes out, you guys think it's some evil spirit and run in fear.

[lunghushan]

It's that ****able weather you have there. Who would want to do an outdoor Tai Chi seminar in the rain and gloom.

Bill Cosby said it perfectly back in the late 60s. When the sun comes out, you guys think it's some evil spirit and run in fear.

The sun is evil. Messed up skin and skin cancer.

You can always tell who is from California up here because their skin is so bad.

[lunghushan]

Sounds like someone studied some other chinese marital art and learned the forms for videos and now calls themselves a Tai Chi instructor. Just my opinion.

No, seems to be pretty typical from what you get from Chinese teachers from the PRC these days.

They could just admit they don't know what they're talking about, but then they'd lose face. They always have to be superior.

[charyuop]

Well, the teacher is not that bad even tho there are no push hands. He looks very closely to every detail and if necessary goes over and over to re explain them (hee hee, not to show off, but not necessary with me...I get at the first time ).

The other day the teacher's Master came by to test the old students, so I had the chance to talk to her. She teaches only to Conoco's employees (wonder why, maybe coz paied by the company), but she comes by once in a while to test students of her certified students.
When class was over I stopped her on the door and we talked a little. She is a very nice lady and even tho in her 50's I think she is also good looking. She said she teaches 8-24-48 forms, sword and after that Chen style. She knows also something called Tao Sword, but she doesn't teach it, she told me by Chinese tradition it is something she will teach only to 2 people.
So I asked if she teaches push hands and she told me she stopped teaching it 10 years ago beacuse almost everybody couldn't "feel" it. Then I asked her what she meant and she put her arm in front of my face and asked me to push against it. I have seen videos of push hands so I know how to position my wrist and started pushing on hers. She told me to push hard, but I was afraid of hurting her (I am much bigger than her) so I pushed gently. She told me "is that all you can do?" so I really pushe hard shifting the body weight, not with my arm. I told her I could push harder, but I would lose my balance and she answered me "that's the point". Then she pushed back and I tried to stop her and she told me to yield and not stop her. So we started a little bit of pushing and receiving trying to shifting my body from fron to back to receive her without losing my balance (even tho she didn't mention, coz it was not a teaching session, but barely just showing me). She was telling me about the balance and how to try to make her lose hers (I guess, I was more paying attention to her arm LOL) and to end it she moved differently with her last push entering inside of my center and pushing me away as if she did no effort at all.

Hey, but I was so excited I didn't sleep that night LOL it was my first and unfortunately last push hands.

Once I will have learnt the 8 and 24 form well I will go back to her and ask her again about teaching me push hands....who knows....

[ProSpo]

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[qiphlow]

While enjoying your Game and Exhibiting your Skills, do take care that 'you are safe'.

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what's up with the advertising???
regarding taiji: i was told that if you want to be nice, no strikes, just push them away. you don't want to be nice, those pushes become strikes! there are both open hand and fist strikes in the yang taiji long form

[Nebuchadnezzar]

....Hey, but I was so excited I didn't sleep that night LOL it was my first and unfortunately last push hands.

Once I will have learnt the 8 and 24 form well I will go back to her and ask her again about teaching me push hands....who knows....

It's not your last until she emphatically says, "NO". If you can get the chance to prove to her that you're worth the effort to teach, take it!

[Nebuchadnezzar]

While enjoying your Game and Exhibiting your Skills, do take care that 'you are safe'.

The best remidy I would like to suggest is use Protective Equipment of Top Quality. Presently prospoindia are the leaders. They have a 'No Match Equipment'. They are supplying the best of Boxing Gloves, Best Heavy Bags, Best Focus Pads, Best Kicking Shields, Best Leg Pads, Best Aerobic Gloves, Best Chest Protectors, Best Head Gears, Best Abdominal Guards, Best Shin Pads, Best Shin & Instep, Best Kick Boxing Shoes, Best Bag Gloves, Best Punching Gloves, Best Hand Wraps.

Infact if we say that they are Number One in Boxing, Martial Arts & Kickboxing.

visit them at: www.prospoindia.com

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