Martial Arts Accreditation and Governing Bodies

[lunghushan]

Maybe I'm insufficiently concerned, but I'd rather have lots of training partners than live in fear of cross-contamination. There are so many potential vectors for the spread of infectious disease that there's almost no possible way to avoid them all... Something's going to get you eventually...

Yeah, well, honestly I don't like a ton of training partners. It's annoying dealing with new training partners anyway because they all want to do things their way.

It's annoying, but honestly I don't really want to do things their way either, so we're kindof at a stalemate.

I used to do a lot more, but I don't anymore. Getting older, I guess.

"Every physical contact?" Please elaborate... It'd be darn hard to train while wearing a body condom or HAZMAT suit...

Well, honestly after all the outbreaks of ringworm, staph and herpes, herpes which doesn't ever go away and staph which can kill you, I think that people should wear gloves and at least a rash guard whenever they do partner practice. That's just my opinion.

I'm either misinterpreting sarcasm, or you misunderstood my comment. I meant to say that the broken toes were avoidable, and the instructor showed far less than adequate concern. Of course, knuckle-head was the one that executed a ****-poor fall (that's also the instructor's fault, as their skills are mediocre at best), so he actually hurt himself if you choose to look at it that way...

Yeah, I guess I'd be more concerned with both if I hadn't have broken my own toes so many times in MA practice. The thing that ticked me off is that my health plan doctor wouldn't even set the fricking toe, saying, "Toes don't need to be set" the first time with one of them, so it never set straight so it's caused a lot of problems.

But yeah, they should be more careful, and break a toe you should take care of it.

We're required in our style to learn first aid for a number of conditions, CPR, and at higher levels we are required to document formal training in one of a number of healthcare modalities, both "traditional" and/or "modern." The point is, you need to balance "hurt" with "heal." We recognize that, and incorporate it into the doctrinal fiber of our training.

Yeah, I'm not so much into the healing aspects. But basic health training in scouts and explorers covered first aid, tournaquets, splints, direct pressure, CPR and all of that, so I haven't really ever had much of a problem.

You've either had some killer training, or you've been playing with some folks who need adult supervision! Even when I did Arnis I only suffered a few minor "self-inflicted" stick hickeys and one or two fingers that got in the way of an errant stick.

What can I say. In my youth, I used to always look for the hardest core place I could find. I quit the place with the sticks in the eyes though after that because they were out of control. But the broken arms were just from Judo. Twice it happened, at different schools, because the person resisted the throw, and the person underneath got squirrelly. #1 rule of Judo IMHO is once they have you (once you've lost it), DON'T RESIST.

I love Washington, and I plan on retiring here after I get out of the Army (5 more years!), however it seems that the "leadership" of WA (if you can call it that) would like to spend more time talking about how jacked up things are than actually doing anything about it. The news stations would have you believe that there are murderers around every corner and pedophiles packing every school playground. My favorite was how KOMO4 played up the DC Sniper by leading every news segment about his "expert marksmanship" (which is complete BS, as the longest shot he took was well under 200 meters, which is only the "50 yard line" for our rifle qualification and nowhere near the 400 meter mark real snipers fire at regularly...) with his supposed connection to the Army via his stint at Fort Lewis over a decade earlier...

Well, he's an expert marksman, I guess, compared to the average citizen. But those real snipers are pretty scary.

But yeah, they do spend a lot of time around here in political correctness and freaking out, and analysis paralysis. They can never seem to get any major project underway like the viaduct or whatever because they're always talking about it endlessly.

[YiLiQuan1]

Well, he's an expert marksman, I guess, compared to the average citizen. But those real snipers are pretty scary.

Yeah, but to us military folks were pretty peeved about the whole "former Fort Lewis expert marksman So-and-So..." Two-hundred yard shots are cake! It's quite literally one of the two easiest shots on the entire range! Talk to me about "expert" when you're pegging 300 meter targets (which look all of about an 1/8 of an inch tall from your firing position over open sights) with regularity, and even then you are a far cry from "sniper" level...

But yeah, they do spend a lot of time around here in political correctness and freaking out, and analysis paralysis. They can never seem to get any major project underway like the viaduct or whatever because they're always talking about it endlessly.

I don't want this to imply my personal politics (being a Soldier, I don't really get much say), but Democrats would rather do nothing than something, and Republicans would rather do something than nothing (regardless of the appropriateness of what they did in the first place...).

[Yao Sing]

"In our school, we don't wear headgear, gloves, booties, mouthpieces or cups. You learn to defend yourself, or you get hit. It's good incentive to get the hell out of the way."

My feelings also although we seem to be in the minority. Nothing teaches the importance of blocking like a shot in the giblets.

Personally I think all the padding makes you careless. But I would argue for a mouthpiece since you will get hit there.

I think the best would be one padded the other not so one could work on full contact aggression while requiring serious concern for the reality of getting hit. Then switch.

[YiLiQuan1]

My feelings also although we seem to be in the minority. Nothing teaches the importance of blocking like a shot in the giblets.

I guess my take on things is that "back in the old days" there weren't advanced plastics, space-age polymers, etc., to make protective gear out of. There was "armored" and "unarmored." Somehow, the old guys managed to survive training just fine...

Just because technology advances and provides neat new toys, that doesn't mean training methodology has to change along with it. Sure, sure, don't keep doing things the old way if there's a new, more efficient way, but I don't see that vinyl-dipped foam padding is necessarily such a great addition that I should start using it... Sure, you can get rocked, but it's not the same kind of pain, not the same kind of "motivation" to make the other guy miss...

Personally I think all the padding makes you careless. But I would argue for a mouthpiece since you will get hit there.

I've learned to at least pay attention to keeping my mouth shut... I've bit my tongue and had my teeth smacked shut enough times to realize that a clenched jaw is better than a slack one...

[SPJ]

What are your thoughts on the need (or not) for Martial Arts Accreditation for martial arts instructors and the need for Governing Bodies?

each style/school may form a loose association with memberships extending to teachers, students and hobbyist or supporting members etc.

each style may form a committe from substyles or regions, countries etc.

the committee will form forums to "unify" some common training methods, some common "forms" or technique sets, variants and derivative are allowed in each school.

from there; "common" "requirements" set for advancements. Duan or belt systems or just beginner, intermediate, and advanced curricullum and training methods etc.

again variants from the common "bases" are allowed.

thesis, research work on theory (principles) and practice (moves/techniques, biophysics or body mechanics etc) are required for the advance levels.

peer or committee reviews and accreditation to the "original" author etc.

however, this may work against the free flow and dynamics of a style by "systemizing" or dragonian the style.

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you can't have the candy and eat it, too.

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[Fuzzly]

I think padding is important on different levels to different people. I am kinda fat (one of the reasons I've gotten into MA, give me credit for improving myself, lol), and to be honest most chest protectors are way too small and uncomfortable. I could buy my own, but that would take money I don't have. I would rather have some bruises and the air knocke out of me than be chaffing.

But I'm a college student, I am OK with feeling beat-up the next morning. But what about the businessman who is doing this as a hobby? I'm sure the day that he spars he'll want a chest protector or shin guards, because his non-ma life is more effected.


I do think basic CPR is a skill everyone should have, no matter what.

[YiLiQuan1]

But what about the businessman who is doing this as a hobby? I'm sure the day that he spars he'll want a chest protector or shin guards, because his non-ma life is more effected.

Maybe I'm a purist, but...

If you want to be a motocross racer, do you get yourself a suit that resists dirt and mud, and a bike that is padded, with extra shock absorbing materials, etc.? That wouldn't really be motocross, would it?

If you want to be a rock climber, do you limit yourself solely to climbing indoor rock walls made of high-impact plastic and resin, complete with industrial strength, professionally installed pitons and nice, thick pads to fall onto should you lose your grip? That wouldn't really be rock climbing, would it?

If you want to be a weigh-lifter, do you only ever lift weights that are comfortable and require no strain, following a program that never really leaves you limping and tender to the touch the following day? That wouldn't really be weight-lifting, would it?

If you want to be a martial artist, and you limit your training only to that which will never endanger you, never expose you to actual contact with a partner (be it percussively during striking training, or body-to-body during grappling training), and never require you to "hit or miss" with your technique, that isn't really martial arts training, is it?

If the business man wants to wear fancy PJs, shout "haiiiii-YA" over and over again, while breaking a single inch of dry pine, then he's not really doing martial arts. If he gets into a school that leaves him sore the following day, then at least he knows he did something worthwhile the evening prior...

[SevenStar]

My feelings also although we seem to be in the minority. Nothing teaches the importance of blocking like a shot in the giblets.

Personally I think all the padding makes you careless. But I would argue for a mouthpiece since you will get hit there.

I understand your take, but whenever I hear people say it, I have to question what they are calling hard contact. If I can KO a person with gloves and headgear on, I could do worse to them with no gear at all. When you have hundreds to thousands of hard strikes thrown at you nightly, the chances of you getting hit are greater and greater. If we wore no pads, we would have no training partners.

[SevenStar]

I guess my take on things is that "back in the old days" there weren't advanced plastics, space-age polymers, etc., to make protective gear out of. There was "armored" and "unarmored." Somehow, the old guys managed to survive training just fine...

it's also no secret that a lot of schools didn't spar.

Just because technology advances and provides neat new toys, that doesn't mean training methodology has to change along with it. Sure, sure, don't keep doing things the old way if there's a new, more efficient way, but I don't see that vinyl-dipped foam padding is necessarily such a great addition that I should start using it... Sure, you can get rocked, but it's not the same kind of pain, not the same kind of "motivation" to make the other guy miss...

the dipped point gear sucks. However, that pain is sufficient motivation, as there is still the risk of getting KOed.

[YiLiQuan1]

I understand your take, but whenever I hear people say it, I have to question what they are calling hard contact. If I can KO a person with gloves and headgear on, I could do worse to them with no gear at all. When you have hundreds to thousands of hard strikes thrown at you nightly, the chances of you getting hit are greater and greater. If we wore no pads, we would have no training partners.

I'll admit we don't punch each other straight in the teeth often; we usually make head contact with slaps and only the occasional punch, usually to the back or side of the head (not face).

We do a fair amount of 70% power body contact (+/-), and it can result in the "hit-ee" at least taking a knee, if not outright resting for a few minutes to recover. We kick pretty hard to the outside of the thighs, the inside of the thighs, and about 50 - 70% power to the body.

I don't say, nor have I ever said, this is necessarily the same as all-out, full-on, 1000 punch berserker attacks. I've done full contact work with pads, and I admit that having headgear is handy. I'll also say, though, that after the first dozen hits or so, you gain confidence that the hits aren't going to take you out, whereas minus the helmet you're going to go take a seat for more than a couple minutes... Again, the motivation factor is higher without the gear.

But you guys know that. I'm not talking to dummies here, I know that. Seems that we're all heading in about the same direction, more or less, except for the fear of disease vector on lunghushan's part...

[Fuzzly]

Maybe I'm a purist, but...

If you want to be a motocross racer, do you get yourself a suit that resists dirt and mud, and a bike that is padded, with extra shock absorbing materials, etc.? That wouldn't really be motocross, would it?

If you want to be a rock climber, do you limit yourself solely to climbing indoor rock walls made of high-impact plastic and resin, complete with industrial strength, professionally installed pitons and nice, thick pads to fall onto should you lose your grip? That wouldn't really be rock climbing, would it?

If you want to be a weigh-lifter, do you only ever lift weights that are comfortable and require no strain, following a program that never really leaves you limping and tender to the touch the following day? That wouldn't really be weight-lifting, would it?

If you want to be a martial artist, and you limit your training only to that which will never endanger you, never expose you to actual contact with a partner (be it percussively during striking training, or body-to-body during grappling training), and never require you to "hit or miss" with your technique, that isn't really martial arts training, is it?

If the business man wants to wear fancy PJs, shout "haiiiii-YA" over and over again, while breaking a single inch of dry pine, then he's not really doing martial arts. If he gets into a school that leaves him sore the following day, then at least he knows he did something worthwhile the evening prior...

There are varying levels os soreness and injury. I agree with your statements, but only if the person is doing those activities as a career. Someone people have hobbies, and hobbies don't require you go "all-out". Yes, most everyone is going to be sore after they train hard, but the mother of 3 lady who trains 3-4 hours a week dosn't need to leave class beat up or so sore she can't move the next day. People have varying levels of dedication, and I don't see it as a bad thing.

I don't see the need to make the guy who is working 40+ hours a week feel like crap. If he wants the extra protection, give it to him.

I do see where you are coming from, and maybe you are a bit of a purist. =)

[YiLiQuan1]

it's also no secret that a lot of schools didn't spar.

Very, very true. Which would lead to it's own tangential thread of "how did the "old masters" get so allegedly deadly without sparring?" But that's another debate entirely...

If I'm doing stick work, then I want headgear. Catching a stick upside the noggin is no pleasure cruise. For that matter, I want gloves, too. I type for a living, and I'm not keen on having pain every instant of the day. That having been said, when I trained with a friend of mine from Japan while I was in Korea, he brought gloves and headgear, and we went full on for about 45 minutes... The headgear bought me a false sense of security, as I knew the punches I was sucking up weren't going to hurt me, and my timing was jacked because of the weight and size of the glove... Granted, if I trained with them more often, I'd be able to compensate. Fine. But what would that do to my bareknuckle technique? How would it reverse-affect my timing?

the dipped point gear sucks. However, that pain is sufficient motivation, as there is still the risk of getting KOed.

Amen.

When I went through Level 1 Combatives certification, we had to do the "Clinch Drill," which basically consists of the biggest guys in the battalion putting on 16 oz gloves and trying to take your head off your shoulders. You get a mouthpiece and a vinyl-dipped helmet, and that's it. The drill ends when you achieve one of 3 allowed clinch positions, all of which pretty much require you to eat no less than a dozen headshots on the way in. The point of the drill isn't the clinch; it's that you can "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'." Still had an ache in my brain pan even with the headgear...

[YiLiQuan1]

There are varying levels os soreness and injury. I agree with your statements, but only if the person is doing those activities as a career.

Why does it have to be a career? The difference isn't in how they do the activity, but rather the amount of time and effort they put into getting good at it...

I can ride a motocross bike/motorcycle once a month on a weekend. Am I a motocross cyclist or not? Well, as long as I'm doing it like "the pros," then I am, but it's just a hobby. If I'm half-assing the endeavor, then I'm just a poseur on a motocross bike.

I can rock-climb once a month on a weekend. Am I a rock-climber or not? Well, as long as I do it "right," then I am, but it's just a hobby. If I'm wearing the most expensive, over the top gear, but climbing no higher than 6 feet off the ground, and even then only with the most advanced pulley system preventing me from coming anywhere near bumping my tender bottom on the mats, then I'm just a poseur with expensive toys.

I can weight-lift once a month on a weekend. Am I a weight-lifter or not? Well, as long as I make an attempt at proper form, proper technique, etc., then I am, but it's just a hobby (and certainly will go absolutely nowhere). If I'm wearing big, baggy pants, a cut-off sleeveless t-shirt, expensive (though barely used) weight gloves, walking around the gym drinking my designer whey shake while barely breaking a sweat lifting only the lightest weights (and then only for a scant few reps), then I'm just a joke who ought to invest in another hobby...

And it's exactly the same with martial arts.

Someone people have hobbies, and hobbies don't require you go "all-out". Yes, most everyone is going to be sore after they train hard, but the mother of 3 lady who trains 3-4 hours a week dosn't need to leave class beat up or so sore she can't move the next day. People have varying levels of dedication, and I don't see it as a bad thing.

Then they're not doing martial arts. They're doing fancy aerobic dance minus the cool, toe-tapping tunes. They're also kidding themselves if they think they're developing anything other than their ego and fitness. If they think they can fend off an attacker intent on taking their money (at least) or their life (at most), then after they've died and passed on to the afterlife, they can examine in retrospect the validity of the work they did...

I don't see the need to make the guy who is working 40+ hours a week feel like crap. If he wants the extra protection, give it to him.

But the point is "what does he/she think he/she is actually doing?" If they think they're training to fight, and they wear layer upon layer of pads while never making anything amounting to real contact (or for that matter, never learning what receiving real contact feels like), then the teacher is actually doing a severe disservice to the student by "protecting" him or her...

It's important to hit things full bore. It's also important to inure yourself to a certain degree of pain, otherwise that first, mind-numbingly painful hit is going to stun you so badly that no matter the number of padded hours of sparring you clocked in, you're still going to end up hamburger...

The more we sweat in peace the less we bleed in war. Or something like that... But remember, I'm a Soldier, so my current motivations for training are a little different than your everyday Joe.

[lunghushan]

Yeah, but to us military folks were pretty peeved about the whole "former Fort Lewis expert marksman So-and-So..." Two-hundred yard shots are cake! It's quite literally one of the two easiest shots on the entire range! Talk to me about "expert" when you're pegging 300 meter targets (which look all of about an 1/8 of an inch tall from your firing position over open sights) with regularity, and even then you are a far cry from "sniper" level...

I don't want this to imply my personal politics (being a Soldier, I don't really get much say), but Democrats would rather do nothing than something, and Republicans would rather do something than nothing (regardless of the appropriateness of what they did in the first place...).

Yeah, some of those shots that snipers make are pretty amazing. Somebody was telling me hitting a quarter from 500 yards was about average.

I'm not for either party. IMHO it's a false dichotomy designed for those who can't reason. They're both run by big business. But try to talk sense into anybody about that, it's nothing doing.

I will say that given the past 20 years or so of history, I think we need a new party. One where we pay our bills, support our citizens, and don't sell out to big business. But instead we like focusing on abortion or guns.

[Fuzzly]

I see what you are saying Yili, but I don't agree. Just because they wear pads dosn't mean they aren't doing martial arts. The more pads you have, the less injuries you take, the longer you can train.

Also, it's easier to use "full power" for people if their opponent is wearing pads, at least at first.


I think our disagreement comes from us disagreeing whether or not people can "do" martial arts if they are not %100 committed.