Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Lamassu]

There is only one Master in Texas (Master Schaefer), and he's at the North Austin kwoon. When I asked my sifu down in San Marcos about the frequency in sparring he told me that as long as there was a black belt there to supervise, then we could spar whenever. In fact even if our sifu couldn't make it to class then one of the most senior black belts (usually a 1st degree; nothing higher than a 2nd degree) would take over the class and it was business as usual, including sparring. I figured this would be standard for all SD kwoons in the U.S. and sparring was part of the everyday criteria. Live and learn.

[BoulderDawg]

I've done fairly extensive research and have found no evidence for the lineage.

Quite frankly, I can find no proof that Master Su existed at all. Also, it's strange the lineage begins with Su. How about all those Masters at the Fukien Temple? The ones that taught those 900 forms? Are these names just lost in history? It appears that Su would have seen the importance of passing at least some of this information down to Ie. Also Ie himself should have studied under the majority of these Masters.

Now according to the CSC manual in the 1950/60s Master Ie ran a school that had 80 students with a long waiting list. Doesn't it make sense that Sin would not be the only Master that studied under Ie that I can find any information on. The man ran this school for years. There should be hundreds of people out there who were either students or family or friends of students. And in all that time no one thought "could I have a picture taken with the Master". In fact the school was large enough and Ie (supposely) was such an important Master that I believe the school should probably still exist in some form. After all Ie was 96 when he died. Was he not concerned enough about the art to name somebody as his successor?

In any case the facts are just not there. Can I prove that these people did not exist? About as much as I can prove Sasquatch and Aliens don't exist. All one can do is look at the evidence and decide for themselves.

**************

As far as sparring goes:

The rule is: No one can spar at CSC unless the owner of the school is present. In our case the owners are the Masters.

Everything seemed okay until about September of last year. There were reasons for the absence of the Masters then however we were informed that after the first of the year the Masters would return. This was not the case. My friends still in the program tell me they are lucky if the Masters show up once a week. I have not participated since December.

They have also cut the amount of time that the school is open. Lower belt class is now one hour...it use to be two. I guess you can say they have less time to actually not be there!

[MasterKiller]

Now according to the CSC manual in the 1950/60s Master Ie ran a school that had 80 students with a long waiting list. Doesn't it make sense that Sin would not be the only Master that studied under Ie that I can find any information on. The man ran this school for years. There should be hundreds of people out there who were either students or family or friends of students. And in all that time no one thought "could I have a picture taken with the Master". In fact the school was large enough and Ie (supposely) was such an important Master that I believe the school should probably still exist in some form. After all Ie was 96 when he died. Was he not concerned enough about the art to name somebody as his successor?

The school does still exist in Indonesia, according to some folks here who say they have visited it.

It's not such a strecth for thousands of people to have studied there, but no one else in America knows about it. The Korean situation is the same way. Thousands of people have studied Long Fist/N. Mantis/Bagua in Korea, but there are only a handful of schools in the U.S. teaching styles from these lineages, and most of those are only here because of U.S. Servicemen returning home after being stationed in Seoul.

If you think about it, Karate and TKD are sooooo prevelent because of U.S. soldiers as well. Since Indonesia isn't a hotbed of American involvement, there probably aren't a lot of Westerners there to learn it and bring it back home.

Not having any actual photos does bug me, though. Seems like someone would have snapped a pic instead of taking the time to paint all those...erm...not-so-good likenesses. I was pulling for the European dude on here to actually have some photos, but I guess he disappeared.

[ninthdrunk]

Man, where to start?

Lamassu - you should read back through posts of TWS. Whether I agree with his case or not, he has his reasons, and you might understand him a little better if you check it out. Oh, and incidentally, I was a Martindale/San Marcos student for a long while. If you started back at Betty Jack's, or the Aquarena Springs location, you probably know me (or if you started before that...six years...hmm? I don't remember where we were back then!)

That's some serious cr@p that y'all can't spar without a master, or the owner of the school! Oh, and one hour a week is also cr@p! I hope you can find something you enjoy, BD, and I hope that didn't leave too bad of a taste in your mouth for SD.

BQ - I can't believe it's still two weeks away! I've thought it was two weeks away for the last two months. I can't even control myself these days!! I'll see you there!

[Judge Pen]

The school does still exist in Indonesia, according to some folks here who say they have visited it.

It's not such a strecth for thousands of people to have studied there, but no one else in America knows about it. The Korean situation is the same way. Thousands of people have studied Long Fist/N. Mantis/Bagua in Korea, but there are only a handful of schools in the U.S. teaching styles from these lineages, and most of those are only here because of U.S. Servicemen returning home after being stationed in Seoul.

If you think about it, Karate and TKD are sooooo prevelent because of U.S. soldiers as well. Since Indonesia isn't a hotbed of American involvement, there probably aren't a lot of Westerners there to learn it and bring it back home.

Not having any actual photos does bug me, though. Seems like someone would have snapped a pic instead of taking the time to paint all those...erm...not-so-good likenesses. I was pulling for the European dude on here to actually have some photos, but I guess he disappeared.

I was pulling for that too, but oh well.... AT least he did say that his teacher trained with Ie, so that's one non-SD person (or a troll--the jury is still out).

[Baqualin]

BQ - I can't believe it's still two weeks away! I've thought it was two weeks away for the last two months. I can't even control myself these days!! I'll see you there!

I know, GMS will be in this Sunday and EML is the most excited I've ever seen him...it's going to be a fun weekend
BQ

[brucereiter]

(or a troll--the jury is still out).

that was my call right away :-(

[brucereiter]

I've done fairly extensive research and have found no evidence for the lineage.

-provide some of the things you researched. your questions and conclusions ...

Quite frankly, I can find no proof that Master Su existed at all.

there is no "proof" sin the's teacher told him the history/legends of his system and this is what sin the shares with the people who are interested.

Also, it's strange the lineage begins with Su. How about all those Masters at the Fukien Temple? The ones that taught those 900 forms? Are these names just lost in history?

good question ... it would be interesting to hear the "pre history" of su kong ... but i dont think we will.

It appears that Su would have seen the importance of passing at least some of this information down to Ie. Also Ie himself should have studied under the majority of these Masters.

why?

Now according to the CSC manual in the 1950/60s Master Ie ran a school that had 80 students with a long waiting list. Doesn't it make sense that Sin would not be the only Master that studied under Ie that I can find any information on. The man ran this school for years. There should be hundreds of people out there who were either students or family or friends of students. And in all that time no one thought "could I have a picture taken with the Master". In fact the school was large enough and Ie (supposely) was such an important Master that I believe the school should probably still exist in some form. After all Ie was 96 when he died. Was he not concerned enough about the art to name somebody as his successor?

there are, you need to go to indonesia to speak with them. not everyone who does martial arts has a youtube channel and a website. the teachings do still exist "in some form"
sin kwang the' in 1968 was named ie chang mings successor.
just because you have not seen a picture does not mean there are no pictures. many of the paintings in question are paintings of pictures.
note: i wish there were more pictures too :-)

In any case the facts are just not there. Can I prove that these people did not exist? About as much as I can prove Sasquatch and Aliens don't exist. All one can do is look at the evidence and decide for themselves.

the evidence says in some form "these people" do/did exist.
in my opinion legend and fact can be easy to confuse.

**************

As far as sparring goes:

The rule is: No one can spar at CSC unless the owner of the school is present. In our case the owners are the Masters.

this is not the case in the atlanta schools. the general rule is under brown belt you need supervision to spar and brown belt or higher spar to your hearts content.

[KungFu Student]

Ok for over 40 years GMS has been bashed, called a lair, harressed and yet no one in 40 years has proven him wrong or a fraud...NO ONE!!! So all you so called experts out there SHOW ME Proof

Unfortunately, this issue has polarized people to the point that if proof was offered up, there will still naysayer’s that will come up with some way to try and discredit it, "I don't believe you", "My research tells me this", "Picture is too blurry", you get the idea. I would implore people to just let this go, but we all know that is not going to happen. I have resolved myself to the fact that there are those who you cannot please, and like to complain and argue until they pass out. I would rather spend my time training, and researching ideas and techniques that improve my skill. But that is just me, my opinions do not reflect that of the management!

[kungfujunky]

to bad you left bd

i will be in boulder this weekend and was looking forward to crossing hands

hehe

the elder masters had a very serious family issue come up this year and it has changed their views on a few things. i think the schools will pass to the senior student (or the one most capable of running it) soon as the masters are spread pretty thin.

boulderdawg you have no issue with coming on here and spouting off at the mouth but you couldnt ask the elder masters any of this because?

the schedule is up for months in advance so you know when they will be around.

it wouldnt be to hard to catch them and ask for either
a: some time when they could help alleviate some concerns of yours or
b: answer a few questions.

in my experience the masters have always had time for their students no matter how busy they are.

as for the sparring issue

the way the insurance for the schools is set up the owner must be present otherwise accidents are not covered. period.

ive checked because i was curious about this as well. but you know what!

i just drove to the springs so i could spar a few rounds every other week. and it was well worth the drive! lol

[John Many Jars]

Ok, here's the weird thing. We've had one of the masters at the Denver school more often than not since January. So we've been sparring quite a bit. Mind you I'm not complaining. It just seemed interesting.

I was talking to one of the 4th blacks here recently and the story is that years ago the Soards went out of town and there were something like 4 people injured while sparring so they stopped doing it. He was one of them w/ a broken wrist. That's probably where the insurance thing comes in. =\

this is not the case in the atlanta schools. the general rule is under brown belt you need supervision to spar and brown belt or higher spar to your hearts content.

That's generally what our rule is outside of class though a few of us occasionally spar during practice hour.


@kungfujunky- Are you going to come to the Denver school on Sat. for gloved sparring? If not and you're around Sunday night, I could probably scrounge up some people for a sparring night.......if you're interested.

[kungfujunky]

i am definitely coming saturday

and i find it weird about the one master as well but i have assumed the other was at boulder

[kwaichang]

What happened to the good old days when students were respectful, teachers were dedicated to the student and not the dollar$$ ?? I am saddened by the lack of self discipline toward the spiritual and philosophical side of MA training. The total focus now is who can Kick whos as$. So what we all know that is not what this stuff is all about. Shoot if it were all of us would just carry a bigger gun. Those who question the art they have chosen to study and doubt the integrity of the Grand Master in my opinion should just leave. Well I guess I have opened a new can of worms. I can tell you though when I started to train in 1971 it was different and what we were taught meant something it was about learning not many of the things focused on here. BTW TWS no answer about August I guess you arent up to it. KC

[Baqualin]

What happened to the good old days when students were respectful, teachers were dedicated to the student and not the dollar$$ ?? I am saddened by the lack of self discipline toward the spiritual and philosophical side of MA training. The total focus now is who can Kick whos as$. So what we all know that is not what this stuff is all about. Shoot if it were all of us would just carry a bigger gun. Those who question the art they have chosen to study and doubt the integrity of the Grand Master in my opinion should just leave. Well I guess I have opened a new can of worms. I can tell you though when I started to train in 1971 it was different and what we were taught meant something it was about learning not many of the things focused on here. BTW TWS no answer about August I guess you arent up to it. KC

Just be thankful that you train where you do....it's still the good ole days here...see ya in a week & 4 days (what's your schedule?)
BQ

[The Xia]

I am saddened by the lack of self discipline toward the spiritual and philosophical side of MA training. The total focus now is who can Kick whos as$.

Actually, I think what some modern martial artists call philosophical and spiritual is nothing more then B.S. that's been shoved down their throats. Historically speaking, Kung Fu was used for fighting. If you look at the atmosphere that Kung Fu developed in, you will see loads of violence. Kung Fu was tailored for that kind of world. I'm not saying there are no other benefits from Kung Fu besides fighting ability, but I get a little tired of people using what I think amounts to marketing gimmicks to describe what martial arts are about.