Tai chi competitions and sparring

[Scott R. Brown]

I'm thinking of starting reality show where MMA masters fight various nut jobs, such as: a crazed meth addict with an AK-47, a red neck hunter with a hunting rifle and scope, a gang banger with a MP-5, a gang of drunk soccer hooligans after their team loses, Ted Nugent with a crossbow, etc.

It will be called, "The Ultimate Fighter Meets Reality!!!"

[Water-quan]

I'm thinking of starting a reality series with angry old martial artists who put years into training but can't compete with the local USSD or ultra-diluted TKD for business.

They've got 'Ultimate Fighter', and the 'Biggest Loser'. We can call it the 'Ultimate Loser'.

We can set some old Wing Chun guys against Knifefighter and the Dog Brothers and they can win a contract teaching old fat people how to lose weight.


No, seriously, what happened when the top taiji masters on the planet fought?

They came and drank tea, and left. Everybody went, "What happened, didn't they fight?" The senior disciple said, "Didn't you know? Two taiji masters could never fight, because taiji is only for self defense! With no attack, there is no fight."

Yeah, but those stories are nonsense. When the Yang brothers touched hands with Wang Xiang Zhai, they didn't drink tea, and they weren't succesful.

Now, you know I'm not on e of these fantasy hero worshippers - I'm fully aware that it may well have been that wang just was more modern in his approach which gave him the edge over others - maybe old Wang would be dead in UFC as well - no way to know now.

But, Kinifefighter isn't dissing CMA by what he says. In fact, he's echoing what Wang said when he talked abut the disgraceful state of CMA, and that even in those days, Western boxing and Japanese martial arts were way ahead. Now, Wang was a top rated Hsing Yi expert, and is now widely regarded as one of the top masters ever to come from mainland China... so if people like Kinfefighter are saying similar things, then we have to stop and have a think - who is really attacking CMA, and who is really helping it?

One of the fantasies that needs wioing away is the "no fight" excuse... CMA is martial art - it's heart and foundation is searching for true, real martial art skills. One of the great mistakes is to think that it's not about fighting, because straight away the path is corrupted... And it's the path that matters - the method - I don't mean the style, I mean the genuine method- free, personal unfolding of insight through honesty, hard training, thought, experimentation - because that process is the process that is supposed to lead to wisdom and insight, and dare one even say it, understanding of Tao. Without that honest process, it goes no where near that achievement.

Now, if someone is in to wushu forms, say, then that is another path, to be approached in a similar way - wushu has its heart same as boxing... but the first real, honest question to ask is why you want martial arts. Is it to get real boxing skills, or is it to express beautiful, acrobatic movement? Is it for ego? Is it for something else? The great lie that protects kung fu from reality by pretending that it has transcended its definitive purpose is just nonsense. Taiji masters have had plenty fights - there's a video up here of one of the top rated masters having a bit of an ego tiff.

All of these ridiculous expectations we appoint about wushu experts are the first thing we need to let go of. The reality is more exciting than the illusion. Without honesty, the whole thing is dead. Gives a new meaning to "Wu De" - ethic, not just in behaviour, but to ourselves, in the way we train. Bravo Kinifefighter for being honest. You are a good friend of CMA.

[Scott R. Brown]

One of the fantasies that needs wioing away is the "no fight" excuse... CMA is martial art - it's heart and foundation is searching for true, real martial art skills. One of the great mistakes is to think that it's not about fighting, because straight away the path is corrupted... And it's the path that matters - the method - I don't mean the style, I mean the genuine method- free, personal unfolding of insight through honesty, hard training, thought, experimentation - because that process is the process that is supposed to lead to wisdom and insight, and dare one even say it, understanding of Tao. Without that honest process, it goes no where near that achievement.

Hi Water-quan,

I think you have some interesting thoughts. If I might suggest: It is not about fighting, it is about prevailing. Prevailing does not always involve physical altercation and neither does it require the adherence to any method, nor does it require any necessarily hard training. Sun-tzu teaches that prevailing without combat is the essence of gaining your purpose.

One of his primary goals is to establish such a position/appearance/reputation for yourself that it makes combat not worth the risk for an opponent. Having said that, true combat does not require exceptional skill when one is willing to use whatever means necessary in order to prevail. Too often those discussing combat on these boards envision combat as a typical dual, Mano-a-mano. In this event the man thinking according to this view has established for himself a limit to the tactics he is willing to use.

Alexander the Great had a man in his entourage that was a pankration fighter. On one occasion he was challenged to a fight by one of Alexander's soldiers. The soldier claimed that the athlete was no real warrior. The Pankration fighter won the duel, but in the end lost his life. He was able to fight mano-a-mano, but was speared by the angry loser later. The pankration fighter was an expert in the pankration, the warrior was an expert at being a warrior. In the pankration the warrior had the advantage, using warrior skills the warrior had the advantage. The point of all this is that any master of any art is only as good as his limitations.

I have a friend who is a world class tactical/combat shooter. Physically I can kick his a$$ in a second or two, but he wouldn't be foolish enough to challenge me according to my strength. He would challenging me according to his strength and apply it towards my weakness.

Therefore, we must accept that all feelings/beliefs we have of our own competence can only apply within the realm of our expertise. Outside our own expertise we can be defeated and/or humiliated just as easily as anyone else.

[neilhytholt]

But, Kinifefighter isn't dissing CMA by what he says. In fact, he's echoing what Wang said when he talked abut the disgraceful state of CMA, and that even in those days, Western boxing and Japanese martial arts were way ahead. Now, Wang was a top rated Hsing Yi expert, and is now widely regarded as one of the top masters ever to come from mainland China... so if people like Kinfefighter are saying similar things, then we have to stop and have a think - who is really attacking CMA, and who is really helping it?

Yeah, I'm just giving KF a hard time because while he does bring up the non-fighting point, he does it with a huge club -- essentially saying that all CMA sucks and the only real fighting is boxing, kickboxing and grappling. He even has a quote to that effect on another thread somewhere.

The problem is, I think, the entire hierarchy of teaching in CMA and the 'master knows best' mentality, which causes all the problems, like not fighting with other people, thinking that taiji should be learned for years without practical applications, that martial arts are separate, etc.

I don't know how to resolve it, though. There are some encouraging things happening in China like a lot more sanshou/sanda and sparring/MMA style fighting. It really seems like the PRC had a big influence on the wushuification of CMA in the past 15 years or so, and now that they're getting more into fighting perhaps some of that mentality will go away.

[neilhytholt]

I'm thinking of starting reality show where MMA masters fight various nut jobs, such as: a crazed meth addict with an AK-47, a red neck hunter with a hunting rifle and scope, a gang banger with a MP-5, a gang of drunk soccer hooligans after their team loses, Ted Nugent with a crossbow, etc.

It will be called, "The Ultimate Fighter Meets Reality!!!"

Watching Ted Nugent with a crossbow hunt after Tito Ortiz, or better yet that **** Forrest Griffith ... I think I'd definitely want to get that on pay per view.

You could call it just 'Ultimate Reality'.

[Knifefighter]

Yeah, I'm just giving KF a hard time because while he does bring up the non-fighting point, he does it with a huge club -- essentially saying that all CMA sucks and the only real fighting is boxing, kickboxing and grappling.

There are some encouraging things happening in China like a lot more sanshou/sanda and sparring/MMA style fighting. It really seems like the PRC had a big influence on the wushuification of CMA in the past 15 years or so, and now that they're getting more into fighting perhaps some of that mentality will go away.

Not all CMA sucks... just the one's that are isolated in their little fantasy worlds of push hands, forms, chi sao, and pretend "too deadly to do full contact" sparring.

And, yes, real, unarmed fighting is, essentially, boxing, kickboxing and grappling. You can't tell the difference between a CMA fighter and any other type of fighter, at least at the higher levels. Watch MMA and sanshou from China. Their fighting (other than the beginners who have not figured this out at the lowest levels) will be boxing, kickboxing and grappling... any CMA differentiated fighting you might potentially see will be a very small percentage of the overall fighting.

[neilhytholt]

Not all CMA sucks... just the one's that are isolated in their little fantasy worlds of push hands, forms, chi sao, and pretend "too deadly to do full contact" sparring.

And, yes, real, unarmed fighting is, essentially, boxing, kickboxing and grappling. You can't tell the difference between a CMA fighter and any other type of fighter, at least at the higher levels. Watch MMA and sanshou from China. Their fighting (other than the beginners who have not figured this out at the lowest levels) will be boxing, kickboxing and grappling... any CMA differentiated fighting you might potentially see will be a very small percentage of the overall fighting.

Many people have brought up examples such as throat grab, back of the head/neck strikes, but every time you pooh-pooh it, even with the counter example of the MMA match that was stopped because of a back of the head strike.

In other words, you seem to be deep in denial ... so it goes in the circular file.

[Knifefighter]

Many people have brought up examples such as throat grab, back of the head/neck strikes, but every time you pooh-pooh it, even with the counter example of the MMA match that was stopped because of a back of the head strike.

In other words, you seem to be deep in denial ... so it goes in the circular file.

Throat grabs, eye pokes, head neck strikes, biting and all the other "dirty" fighting weapons are just as much a part of boxing, kick boxing, and grappling as they are of CMA, or any other type of fighting. Boxing, kickboxing, and grappling are just the delivery systems for the weapons.

[neilhytholt]

Throat grabs, eye pokes, head neck strikes, biting and all the other "dirty" fighting weapons are just as much a part of boxing, kick boxing, and grappling as they are of CMA, or any other type of fighting. Boxing, kickboxing, and grappling are just the delivery systems for the weapons.

Last I checked, boxing, kickboxing and grappling don't train those types of techniques. They're not "dirty" fighting, they ARE fighting. (Except maybe the biting part).

[Knifefighter]

Last I checked, boxing, kickboxing and grappling don't train those types of techniques. They're not "dirty" fighting, they ARE fighting. (Except maybe the biting part).

CMA doesn't train them either, they pretend to train them... anyone can do any of these techniques if they have the right delivery system.

[neilhytholt]

CMA doesn't train them either, they pretend to train them... anyone can do any of these techniques if they have the right delivery system.

Well, maybe you do make a good point about the 'pretend to train them'.

Since I haven't been able to find any decent places to train, I guess I shouldn't assume there are any decent places left out there.

The problem is that there is just far too little apps practice, and if you find someplace that does do apps, they only allow you to do THEIR apps, which most of the time are pretty lame.

It's kindof sad, but perhaps you're right in that respect. Most CMA places seem to do just a few drills and kickboxing type sparring.

[Water-quan]

Hi Water-quan,

I think you have some interesting thoughts. If I might suggest: It is not about fighting, it is about prevailing. Prevailing does not always involve physical altercation and neither does it require the adherence to any method, nor does it require any necessarily hard training. Sun-tzu teaches that prevailing without combat is the essence of gaining your purpose.

Well, that's a good and wise point. One can also say that one of the primary pointsof martial arts health and well being. Prevailing, avoiding trouble - being wise, insightful, healthy - should all be subsidiary benefits of martial arts, I agree.

However, it is my perception that many of the detriments of CMA masquarade as its virtues. And that processis so ingrained, it is almost impossible to get past it. I call it "dis-appointment of expectations." We have all of these expectations about martial arts, and often, those expectations are the barriers that prevent us acquiring good skill or insight. What we seem to do is appoint those expectations and then expect reality tolive up to them, rather than the other way around - deliberately dis-appointing our expectations so we can see beyond them to the reality.

There is an idea that agression is wrong - people say, even in a fight you should be emotionless. I say that's all part of a nonsense thing. Agression is good and useful - that's why we have it. Peaceability and wisdom seem to have been corrupted to extend to an excuse, excusing CMA from actually being able to do what it is intended.

In other words, prevailing is good, but that kind of says that prevailing is better than boxing theory and knowledge in a way. I, personally, am interestedin martial arts - in the actual fight and the science of fighting. I am, of course, interested in Sun Tzu and Taoism, I just see Taoism as a process of unfolding natural knowledge - and we can unfold it via martial arts, painting, forms - anything. All paths lead no where.

We should recognise the "CMA people don't fight" claim for what it largely is - an excuse. And we should ask, what would happen if they did fight.

One of his primary goals is to establish such a position/appearance/reputation for yourself that it makes combat not worth the risk for an opponent. Having said that, true combat does not require exceptional skill when one is willing to use whatever means necessary in order to prevail. Too often those discussing combat on these boards envision combat as a typical dual, Mano-a-mano. In this event the man thinking according to this view has established for himself a limit to the tactics he is willing to use.

Well, fair enough on the last point, but on the first, that's a strategy for a different objective. If the objective is to avoid trouble, or put off enemies, then that's a strategy for that. If your strategy is, say, to be a good Western boxer,t hen it simply doesn't apply except in terms of psychological tactics. You have to train for what you want to learn.

I'm reminded of Wang Xiang Zhai saying that a boxer who considers himself great behind closed doors isn't worth a penny. Meaning, one might thinkt hey are great, but without ever testing it, what is it worth?

Alexander the Great had a man in his entourage that was a pankration fighter. On one occasion he was challenged to a fight by one of Alexander's soldiers. The soldier claimed that the athlete was no real warrior. The Pankration fighter won the duel, but in the end lost his life. He was able to fight mano-a-mano, but was speared by the angry loser later. The pankration fighter was an expert in the pankration, the warrior was an expert at being a warrior. In the pankration the warrior had the advantage, using warrior skills the warrior had the advantage. The point of all this is that any master of any art is only as good as his limitations.

Well, that is a wise and insightful point I think.

I have a friend who is a world class tactical/combat shooter. Physically I can kick his a$$ in a second or two, but he wouldn't be foolish enough to challenge me according to my strength. He would challenging me according to his strength and apply it towards my weakness.

Therefore, we must accept that all feelings/beliefs we have of our own competence can only apply within the realm of our expertise. Outside our own expertise we can be defeated and/or humiliated just as easily as anyone else.

Well, could be - but tat assumes that boxing theory is about the surface - the techniques... what about that which authors the techniques, the intent, and the essence?

[Water-quan]

Yeah, I'm just giving KF a hard time because while he does bring up the non-fighting point, he does it with a huge club -- essentially saying that all CMA sucks and the only real fighting is boxing, kickboxing and grappling. He even has a quote to that effect on another thread somewhere.

Well, personally, I'm not suprised that anyone would say that. They're just looking at what's in front of them and giving an honest assesment. I say Bravo! It needs saying. Boxing and kickboxing -miles ahead of 99.99999 % of all CMA.

The problem is, I think, the entire hierarchy of teaching in CMA and the 'master knows best' mentality, which causes all the problems, like not fighting with other people, thinking that taiji should be learned for years without practical applications, that martial arts are separate, etc.


I don't know how to resolve it, though. There are some encouraging things happening in China like a lot more sanshou/sanda and sparring/MMA style fighting. It really seems like the PRC had a big influence on the wushuification of CMA in the past 15 years or so, and now that they're getting more into fighting perhaps some of that mentality will go away.

You might like this article - not to over-promote Yiquan, lol - Yiquan is an idea, really, like JKD - but some of the points I think you might be interested as they deal with CMA as a whole:


http://www.yiquan.com/v3/en/file/en018.htm

[neilhytholt]

We should recognise the "CMA people don't fight" claim for what it largely is - an excuse. And we should ask, what would happen if they did fight.

Knifefighter is right about this point which is that usually if CMA people actually had to fight, they would lose. In most every situation because especially most taiji people, they don't practice enough and realistically enough to be able to prevail.

I can't count the number of taiji places that I've gone and brought up the issue only to be told I had a bad attitude, taiji is about peaceful 'taoism', etc.

There's the old saying, walk softly and carry a big stick. Well, IMHO most CMA people especially those who claim to study taiji walk loudly and don't carry any stick.

But I don't know what to do about it. I've brought up the issue countless times, suggested more open training, suggested schools be more open in their curriculum, spend less time practicing form and more time on applications, but it always goes nowhere.

The only reason I mention this on the Taiji competitions and sparring is that it's kindof a joke. Taiji fighting? Taiji is perhaps the least fighting oriented style I've ever come across. Because most places claim you have to have years and years of forms training, character training, etc., before you can fight. And then they're old and gray and don't even fight.

Anyways ... whatever. Now TaiChiBob will chime in he can beat anybody and he does great applications ... down in Florida or wherever. But the exception doesn't discount the fact that the vast majority of CMA is nowhere up to the level of MMA.

[neilhytholt]

Well, personally, I'm not suprised that anyone would say that. They're just looking at what's in front of them and giving an honest assesment. I say Bravo! It needs saying. Boxing and kickboxing -miles ahead of 99.99999 % of all CMA.



You might like this article - not to over-promote Yiquan, lol - Yiquan is an idea, really, like JKD - but some of the points I think you might be interested as they deal with CMA as a whole:


http://www.yiquan.com/v3/en/file/en018.htm

Don't even get me started on watered down Chinese communist non martial arts.