Video: Fajin Exercises of the Pre-Heaven Power Method

[Baqualin]

Greetings..

Water-quan: Nice clip.. there were a couple of interesting movements.. but, the quick pull (uprooting?) prior to the push, is sufficiently telegraphed that it allows a "sensitive" player to follow the direction (pull) and effect his own push before the pull can be redirected into its push.. overall, too much external effort.. Now, i do like some of the redirecting movements..

Be well...

I agree.....more like wrestling (especially the clips of actual competition in the ring) than true push hands. Elbows were up to high alot, which opened up vital areas for attack.

Regarding Master Lin I think it would be best to feel before coming to a conclusion

Maybe a discussion on what true Fajin is and how to apply would be appropriate.
Peace

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Baqualin: i agree, as i have stated previously, my opinion is subject to change base on new or revised evidence.. i would be honored to cross hands with Sifu Lin..

As for Fa Jing, much of my Chen training utilized a very external expression of the "internal" principle of Fa Jing.. it has only been in the last 5-6 years that i have found teachers that truly understand AND can teach "Fa Jing".. and i say this only because i have no internal or external skills that can even begin to match their effortless control of their opponents.. their skills at listening, sticking and adhering put them present as their opponents attempt to issue what they believe is Fa Jing.. the result is both hilarious and profound.. the opponent's "Fa Jing" is manifested in reverse, they blast themselves backward or sideways or even up.. When they decide to issue their own "Fa Jing", it is very subtle.. it perfectly finds the "insubstantial" element of the opponent's attack, and at the moment the opponent feels strongest, their weakness is exploited..

Last week at push practice i had manipulated a pretty good advantage, i had my teacher's arm pinned across his chest, i was substantial on his upper arm, near the shoulder and perpendicular to the line between his heels.. as i attempted to issue some Jing to unbalance him it felf like he sneezed a tiny sneeze.. next thing i know, he's holding me up by my wrist with that impish smile .. now, i'm no slouch at pushing, several gold medals from international competitions, quite a bit of full-contact back in the '60s-'70s.. and more recently, a bit of MT, NHB, grappling, and such.. and none of this stuff even affects my teachers.. it's so humbling.. but, the exhibitions of amazing "fa Jing" like in the clip, is just the tiny tip of an enormous iceberg.. and, to add insult to injury, my teachers say, when you get grasp on this.. maybe you start on the good stuff..

I'm certainly not suggesting that i have the "goods", but i am fortunate to have a couple of sources.. and i deeply respect their patience with an old dog like me..

Be well...

[Water-quan]

Greetings..

i have no internal or external skills that can even begin to match their effortless control of their opponents.. ...

Why is that, Bob?

[Knifefighter]

This was a video demonstration of how to test your ability to use fajin. I was there at the taping of this and it is very real. If you notice Master Lin maintains his structure to create maximum power when using fajin.

Complete and utter B.S.

If you really believe the cr@p he is selling you, let me send you some literature on some swamp land I have for sale.

One would have to be completely clueless not to see the "opponents" jumping up and back... this cr@p is completely fake and is exactly what gives MA's a bad rep.

This demonstration is complete and utter phoniness. Can you say "Mc Dojo cult"?

If his students believe this junk, they are as brainwashed as the students of the "aikido chi blast master" who got destroyed by the Karate/BJJ guy several weeks ago:

Same bu11sh1t, different country-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc&NR

And what happens when phonies like this get called out-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk




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[John Many Jars]

I think I would have laughed at the first vid more if I hadn't seen the second.

That was really sad. The "aikido chi blast master" looked kind of old...

[imperialtaichi]

...brainwashed as the students of the "aikido chi blast master" who got destroyed by the Karate/BJJ guy several weeks ago:

Same bu11sh1t, different country-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc&NR

And what happens when phonies like this get called out-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk

I am not going to put my opinion on someone I have not cross hands with, but Knifefighter had illustrated a good point here.

Very often, students "worship" their teacher so much that they respond according to what they belief is supposed to happen. Even the teacher himself/herself may get delusions on the level of skills because he/she may actually be brainwashed by the students into thinking what he/she is more powerful than what is real.

In the two examples Knifefighter had given, the teacher can do his magic on the students because the students think it is real; and the teacher thinks he can really do his stuff because it worked on his students. If he did not think it was real, he would not have stepped into the match with the Karate dude trying to defeat him with his techniques.

It is therefore, important to cross-check with reality by crossing hands with different people and different schools, and not be fallen into the trap of self delusion.

Cheers,
John

[Water-quan]

I am not going to put my opinion on someone I have not cross hands with, but Knifefighter had illustrated a good point here.

Very often, students "worship" their teacher so much that they respond according to what they belief is supposed to happen. Even the teacher himself/herself may get delusions on the level of skills because he/she may actually be brainwashed by the students into thinking what he/she is more powerful than what is real.

In the two examples Knifefighter had given, the teacher can do his magic on the students because the students think it is real; and the teacher thinks he can really do his stuff because it worked on his students. If he did not think it was real, he would not have stepped into the match with the Karate dude trying to defeat him with his techniques.

It is therefore, important to cross-check with reality by crossing hands with different people and different schools, and not be fallen into the trap of self delusion.

Cheers,
John

Thank you for saying this.

[Justaguy]

I'm looking at what he's doing with his hands before he throws his students, and in a lot of the throws Master Lin seems to be repositioning his hands so that thier hands are grabbing him in a way that is structurally unsound. This is something that would be easy to explain in person, but not so much in typing, but... when I studied Aikido I learned a similar technique where you cut under someone grabbing you's hands and up in a circular motion like he's doing. When you get under them they're uprooted in way that when they push against you, they're essentially knocking themselves down. The teacher would do similarly impressive throws. I tried it at a party against a friend who was a weight lifter and everyone was suitably impressed - which is silly because since you're using the other guy's strength against him the bigger they are the easier it is.

Which is only to say that it is a technique that I've seen work in the past. Although to his credit, he's doing it a lot better than I've seen anyone else ever do.

Of course, without experiencing it for yourself, you really can't say what's going on at all.

[brucereiter]

It is therefore, important to cross-check with reality by crossing hands with different people and different schools, and not be fallen into the trap of self delusion.

Cheers,
John

hi john,

words of wisdom:-)

best,

bruce

[Knifefighter]

I'm looking at what he's doing with his hands before he throws his students, and in a lot of the throws Master Lin seems to be repositioning his hands so that thier hands are grabbing him in a way that is structurally unsound.

It has nothing to do with what the fake instructor is doing and everything to do with the students helping him out.

Although to his credit, he's doing it a lot better than I've seen anyone else ever do.

Watch the second clip posted here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQNakQFI7L4

And the clip I posted on the competition thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5RLWYQbNuI

Those are much more realistic and skilled demonstrations of setups, offbalancing, throwing and pushing.





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[unkokusai]

This was a video demonstration of how to test your ability to use fajin. I was there at the taping of this and it is very real. If you notice Master Lin maintains his structure to create maximum power when using fajin. The power is generated from the feet so there is very little movement in the body unless taking a step. The students that are flying backwards are not acting but are responding to the fajin. The first action in many of these exercises is to uproot your partner quickly and then to create the structure for them to rebound off of. So you will see the students go onto their heels because they are being uprooted. The students stand rather stiffly so that you can see the power generated and they do not get hurt. If they were to relax they would still be uprooted but instead of their arms taking the fajin their chest would. That would not be a practical exercise if you were to break your partner's ribs on an exercise. I can tell you that I have studied internal martial arts for over 2 decades and with some very reputable masters and I have never seen/felt what Master Lin has demonstrated. While some of my former instructors could use fajin from certain postures or after preparing themselves, Master Lin can use fajin from any posture at any time. Not only that but he has a very systematic way of teaching how to use fajin in this manner. Videos can be deceiving. Especially in trying to determine how much power is generated and from where. In this case one needs to feel it to really believe it. Even after feeling it, it boggles the mind that it can be done with such ease.

*Yoda voice*


You, **** full of are. Yes, yes, full of!

[chrisfreel]

Watch the second clip posted here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQNakQFI7L4

And the clip I posted on the competition thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5RLWYQbNuI

Those are much more realistic and skilled demonstrations of setups, offbalancing, throwing and pushing.
.

I watched both clips. In the first, it looked like people with no resistance were letting the instructor show them some point. The instructor was talking throughout, not fighting with them. Not sure what you're trying to point out... there was nothing wrong with it, but I'm not sure there was internal power being used, just some offbalancing and pushing. Of course any skilled instructor can do this. I didn't see the whiplash-like effect I expected from what I'm used to from the first movement, but whatever.

In the second, it looked like many other push hands competitions I've seen.

I think what you're missing is that the video only purports to show what comes before these steps. How do you develop internal power to begin with? Forget using something in a fight... if you don't have it to begin with, what's the point? You just end up compensating by other skills.

These clips are fine... they just don't show the same thing.

[Knifefighter]

I watched both clips. In the first, it looked like people with no resistance were letting the instructor show them some point.

The difference is, they were not jumping back and assisting the instructor to give the illusion that they were flying through the air from his fajing. Additionally, this was a more realistic demonstration of how you set people up to throw or push them.

but I'm not sure there was internal power being used, just some offbalancing and pushing. Of course any skilled instructor can do this.

Offbalancing and setting up is exactly what happens when you throw someone, take them down or push then. "Internal power" is the B.S. that instructors use to brainwash their student into thinking there is another, "better" way to do this.

I didn't see the whiplash-like effect I expected from what I'm used to from the first movement, but whatever.

The whiplash effect comes only from a good set-up... or from students who are helping the instructor.

Of course any skilled instructor can do this.

And skilled is the key word. Skill is setting up the opponent. Non-skilled hors3sh!1 is telling your students all they have to is develop internal power to do this.

You just end up compensating by other skills.

Those "other skills" are the only ones there are. Believing otherwise is why so many TMA practitioners end up with cr@p in terms of applicable skills

[imperialtaichi]

"Internal power" is the B.S. that instructors use to brainwash their student into thinking there is another, "better" way to do this.

Ah, thats interesting. How do you define "Internal"?

When a Tennis coach tells his student to "imagine your arm extended all the way to the edge of the court": is that external or internal? When a boxing coach tells the boxer to "imagine the glove exploding inside the target" what do you call it?

My point is, there are many "better" ways to do things; that's the difference between a good teacher/coach and an ordinary one who only knows how to follow the rest of the crowd. The line between external and internal is often blurry. Sometimes the ways may look weird, but until one has experience with it, it may not be as B.S. as it looks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8LpTbVNcxY

Would you call this internal or external?

Cheers,
John

[Knifefighter]

Ah, thats interesting. How do you define "Internal"?

There is no differentiation between "internal" and "external". Your mind works with your body. The opponent offering feedback and intent are also integral to this process.

When a Tennis coach tells his student to "imagine your arm extended all the way to the edge of the court": is that external or internal? When a boxing coach tells the boxer to "imagine the glove exploding inside the target" what do you call it?

Those are ways to help a student learn basic movements. However, the high skill is developed in the doing of the actual activity against a real opponent who is also working to beat you. This is where the real skills of strategy, tactics, set-ups and finishes occur