Gracie Beach streetfight

[xcakid]

Which one style trains realisticly to stay and defeat multiple attackers? In all my years of study, Chinese, Japanese, dirty knees, I've never seen a gym allow more than one guy go free and full on against another.

Not stay and defeat. Fight so that you can evade or long enough for help to arrive. Or since I am here in TX and can carry a gun legally, fight so that I can have room or time to draw my weappon. Staying to defeat would be impossible as the numbers grow. However, I know from experience, Kempo, and Arnis has a ton of drills in dealing with up to 5 attackers at once. One of the main things that stuck with me in Kempo was stacking opponents. There is a post here about a 3 vs 1 video that has a good example of moving and stacking your opponents so that they can't come at you at once. The guy was able to knock one dude out and last long enough for the cops to show up.

[Mr Punch]

whats the difference between brazil and japan jiu jitsu? please enlighten me.

JJJ has probably scores of ryuha (styles). Most JJJ schools didn't go much on competitive, live resistance training (sparring/rolling). Some of them however, always did. Some JJJ have a better stand-up game than BJJ, and train more striking. Nowadays, I'm happy to say, over here anyway, probably because of the success of BJJ many JJJ schools have introduced regular sparring/rolling.

[Knifefighter]

Ya know, I have never seen BJJ train for multiple attackers.

Standard BJJ does not train for multiple attackers, although it can be modified for that. BJJ specializes in ground fighting against a single opponent... it can also be a viscious system for those who want to use it with multiple people against a single opponent.

As far as multiple opponents, very few systems train realistically for that, although many claim they do.

[SevenStar]

Ya know, I have never seen BJJ train for multiple attackers.

As far as reality goes: I have lived in SoCal. From E L.A. with the vatos there to Newport Beach with the surfer crowd. Everytime I have seen a streetfight, it becomes a mob of the dude friend coming down on you. Specially in E L.A., if you try to grapple with someone and "take it to the ground" be prepared to get your side or back knifed. I have seen many fights where one dude got lured away from his buddies and then jumped on. Only effective way I have seen to defend that is to stay on your feet. Constantly moving and taking your shots tactically until your friends can jump in. If you have no friends with you, your only option is to run.

I witnessed a fight in Huntington Beach where a guy walked up to a dude at a party. Started sh-t with him. Called him outside. As soon as he stepped outside the apartment 4-5 guys jumped on him. It only took seconds before his other friends could jump into the melee, but you shoulda seen the dude face and ribs afterwards as he was being treated by the paramedics.

CAN ANYONE WITH BJJ BACKGROUND TELL ME THEY PRACTICE FOR THAT REALITY OF STREET FIGHT OR DO YOU GUYS JUST LIKE HUGGIN ONE SWEATY GUY AT A TIME?? I have yet to see a BJJ school practice that type of scenario. In every one of my Kung Fu and Kempo classes that I have taken. We practiced multiple attackers. Sparred with take down, with multiple attackers as well as learning to evade a bad situation. That is one of the main reason why I have yet to shell out cash to study BJJ. Sure any BJJ guy can probably kick my a$$ in sparring. But I am confident I can fair well enough in a multiple attacker scenario in true streetfight. In this video, Gracie could've been easily knifed in the back. Especially in Brazil!! Puuuhhhhllleeeesse.

BJJ is probably the most awesome MA for the ring and full contact fighting. In the street, it has its flaws as with any MA out there. More so than others IMHO and based on street fights I have witnessed.

In some schools, bjj does do self defense training as well. My school does, and If I'm not mistaken, gjj schools like gracie barra does it. Royce has a book focusing on it. Anyway, some of the scenarios you practice are multiple opponent based.

ironically, on my job, it is the grapplers who have had the most success... the kempo guy we had got beaten up and eventually quit.

[Black Jack II]

it can also be a viscious system for those who want to use it with multiple people against a single opponent.

I did not know you needed a system to mob some poor dude.

[Black Jack II]

on my job, it is the grapplers who have had the most success

Maybe, that could be because there always testing what they do have in a live enviroment, builds better psychological attributes.

[SevenStar]

I'd like to see these BJJ guys grapple on concrete or asphalt with poles in the way, broken glass, nail and other debris.

I'd like to see the TMA guy do the same after the bjj guy takes him down...

[Black Jack II]

I'd like to see the TMA guy do the same after the bjj guy takes him down...

Would fail worse than the ground kat I would wager, but the point that I was hoping to make was on Rorian's funny comment.

[SifuAbel]

All this is moot.
The guy in the shirt didn't have a chance. He didn't react and counter to that first blow. No amount of show boating, shoe and shirt removal, and setting up in stance, is going to forgive the fact that on that first weak ass swing he didn't flatten the guys face.

THAT is the difference in a real street fight.

[xcakid]

I'd like to see the TMA guy do the same after the bjj guy takes him down...

I would hope that in a street fight, I would have my buddy beating him over the head with something while he was clinched up with me. Or kicking him like that othe guy in the Eddie Bravo vid posted on this forum.



Again let me clarify my position here.

I am not saying BJJ is a lousy art. However the comments made in that video posted is representing BJJ as the end all be all in a street confrontation. That is total BS!!! And to those that buy into it. I have some neighborhoods to take you to that will prove you different.

I will admit BJJ is probably the end all, be all in one on one ring, tournament and/or full contact organized fighting. But in the streets, I don't think it would fair well at all. Based on my observations it would fair worse than most MA. Although I would probably get my behind whipped badly fighting a BJJ guy one on one, I would be willing to bet that if myself and a BJJ guy(with no other training other than BJJ) take on the same 3 guys with weapons like a club or knives, I would fair better than the BJJ guy.

The main factor why it would fail out there is that: the main training is going to ground and submitting/pummeling your opponent. Based on 80% of the street fights I have witnessed and the handfull of the ones I have been personally involved in, this is the worse thing you can do. Get caught up and focused on one opponent. In a street fight you are not only fighting one person. If that person is with friends it becomes a mob like "pile on top" mentality. In the streets a lot of factors can arise. You can be fighting one guy while another one of his buddies come up behind you and blows your head of with a .357 or stab you or hit you over the head with something. You can have a guy just come up to you and punch without warning. You can have a guy ask you for change while his buddy stabs you in the back.

And again as a clarification, I am not saying that Kenpo or Arnis is the best for street fight. However, in the systems I have been with, we did train in a mob style fighting. Not to stand toe to toe but to learn how to maneuver so that you can get away from the situation. While at Villari Shaolin Kempo, whomever wanted to shell out the extra cash, would be able to take a basic handgun course and tactical firearms courses engaging and evading multiple targets. How many other systems do that?

Even then there are flaws in those systems. There are flaws in any system. That flaw is that there are sooooo many variables in a street fight, it would take centuries to train for them all. On the other had, those two systems that I have studied took care of even just a half a handfull of those variables. Firearms training, defending and evading multiple weapons attack, and evading attackers rather than getting caught up in "taking them to the ground".

That is my 2 pesos on the subject. As with anybody, I am right till proven wrong

[SevenStar]

I will admit BJJ is probably the end all, be all in one on one ring, tournament and/or full contact organized fighting. But in the streets, I don't think it would fair well at all. Based on my observations it would fair worse than most MA.

based on my experiences, that is incorrect. bjj training gives the practitioner constant practice, live against a resisting opponent. the live sparring also conditions you psychologically, as bj2 mentioned. You are given a fighting mindset and aggressiveness. As I stated, of the guys I've worked with on my job, it was the TMA guys who got beaten up and later quit. Wonder why that is? Now of course I am not saying that tma is useless, but I am saying that sport arts in general fare better than tma tend to think, becasue they don't look past things like "all bjj guys will try to take you to the ground and arm bar you".

Although I would probably get my behind whipped badly fighting a BJJ guy one on one, I would be willing to bet that if myself and a BJJ guy(with no other training other than BJJ) take on the same 3 guys with weapons like a club or knives, I would fair better than the BJJ guy.

three guys with weapons, you both get severly hurt, possibly die. 1 on 1, I still give the advantage to the bjj guy. he's gonna smother the guy's space, not giving his opponent room to swing or stab, control the weapon wielding arm and deal with it. Afterall, that is already his main strategy anyway.

[PangQuan]

my previous kungfu school did multiple attacker training.

initially you start on defense only against 3 attackers for 3 minutes. eventually you will be allowed to fight back.

fun stuff.

in addition our first form you learn, xiao hong quan, the partner drills are 2-3 attackers at once. so you initially start learning application on that form against 1 person then lead it up to 3.

also fun stuff.

[xcakid]

based on my experiences, that is incorrect. bjj training gives the practitioner constant practice, live against a resisting opponent. the live sparring also conditions you psychologically, as bj2 mentioned. You are given a fighting mindset and aggressiveness. As I stated, of the guys I've worked with on my job, it was the TMA guys who got beaten up and later quit. Wonder why that is? Now of course I am not saying that tma is useless, but I am saying that sport arts in general fare better than tma tend to think, becasue they don't look past things like "all bjj guys will try to take you to the ground and arm bar you".

We are in agreement. It is all based on how one is trained/trains.

At one of the schools I attended we had what was called kill nights. Where we would gear up and go at it full contact. We would practice with up to 5 attacker(depeding on how many people show up). The goal was mainly to get from the back of the floor to the front door. More often than not I never made it out past the halfway point. But it was a good drill. Not always a safe drill. In the time I was there, we've had one busted knee, I've had a dislocated ankle, and few other scrapes and bruises as well as raging headaches after a knock out.

Yes there are few TMA schools that train this way. Fear of lawsuits, low number of enrollments are probably the main reasons. I would even go out on a limb to say that there are no TMA school that trains this way these days.

Although your BJJ school may train differently, you gotta admit, the majority of BJJ schools out there emphasizes the one on one submission fighting.

[BraveMonkey]

What is most disappointing to me about the scenario and narration depicted in this clip is that it promotes the idea that self-defense is about reacting violently to any chump who happens to say something you don’t like. Unless you are doped up on your own bloated ego, you don’t slap a stranger and then challenge him to a duel. That might be a good way to start “fighting” but it has nothing to do with keeping yourself safe.

Self-defense (which is what is being touted in this clip) has nothing to do with proving what a big man you are, and everything to do with not letting someone beat the snot out of you. All this video proves is that if you pick your opponent and surroundings carefully, you can make good use of your training. No surprise there.

[PangQuan]

What is most disappointing to me about the scenario and narration depicted in this clip is that it promotes the idea that self-defense is about reacting violently to any chump who happens to say something you don’t like. Unless you are doped up on your own bloated ego, you don’t slap a stranger and then challenge him to a duel. That might be a good way to start “fighting” but it has nothing to do with keeping yourself safe.

Self-defense (which is what is being touted in this clip) has nothing to do with proving what a big man you are, and everything to do with not letting someone beat the snot out of you. All this video proves is that if you pick your opponent and surroundings carefully, you can make good use of your training. No surprise there.

i agree fully