Claims about MMA

[SevenStar]

No, just to create space.

This is all I could find on short notice. No shoulder striking here, but it shows the arm swimming.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvZux...elated&search=

You can still consider that offensive. It's not uncommon in a boxing or muay thai clinch to shoulder so that you can make space for a hook or uppercut. In that sense, I would call it offensive, but you aren't gonna KO someone with it.

[SevenStar]

is that Kung Fu/ CMA is a mixed martial art. What I mean is that many of the styles that are still around are a conglomeration , a hybrid if you will, of previous styles known to have holes, flaws, and are just flat out missing pieces of the puzzle.

We know that CMA / Kung Fu has weapons , punching , kicking , grappling, etc.

Some styles get their hand work from one system and foot work from another , etc. Is this not MMA??

yes and no. In the sense of "I wanna mix everything 'JKD style' and take the best of each art" - yes, it is mixed. BUT, that is NOT what the mma venues are based on. The mma venue is based on two components - striking and grappling, period. Thus, someone who trained tkd, mantis and shotokan is not an mma - he has no ground component. In response to what fu pow said, we do not consider it a system because it is not. There is not a refusal to make it a system, it just simply is not one. It is a guideline - striking and grappling. period. do you train boxing and wrestling? that is mma. do you train muay thai and bjj? that is mma. Do you train longfist and judo? that is mma. wing chun and catch wrestling? that is mma. it is not a system because there are so many ways of achieving the requirement of striking and grappling. It is not standardized and is thus not a system.

Everyone talks about TMA and what is right and wrong or correct and incorrect but has done very little to prove anything . It is very difficult to say how traditional TMA/ CMA is right now.

so what are you doing to change that?

I know that there are many of you that think you know what TMA/ CMA is all about based on your experience , what your teachers have told you, etc. But this does not make it true.

experience makes it so. Just as you believe that cma has groundfighting, our experience tells us otherwise.

I think there is something to be learned from all martial arts and artist.

I don't disagree with that.

We are all part of the martial arts puzzle. Like shaolin of old we should all come together and learn from one another and not dismiss or disrespect someone elses chosen style, or other styles/ sytems just because it does not fit in our ideas of what is and is not effective and or applicable.

I don't think we are part of some puzzle. It just is what it is. evolution happens over time due to a need. When some new, devastating tactic appears in mma, people will learn it, then learn to counter it. Such is the circle of fighting. Until then, they train hard at what has been proven to work in their given environment. To date, cma has not made any significant contribution to mma fighting which is why mma tends to have no interest in cma. on the same token, there are many cma with no interest in mma, though within the realm of san shou, mma components may have great benefit. I can also see san shou benefitting mma, but that won't begin to happen until more san shou is seen in the bigger mma venues. That still won't lead to much exploration of various cma, IMO, merely more attention on san shou specifically.

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulXzfJq3Dd0

Those were no different from the other demos. They were done with breaking bricks... a far cry from using a real construction brick and an even further cry from a brick wall out back.

[Fu-Pow]

I guess the BUZZ phrase is now "BACK TO BASICS".


Reply]
Hee, hee, hee I started a Buzz Phrase!!!!

Oh lord!

[Royal Dragon]

experience makes it so. Just as you believe that cma has groundfighting, our experience tells us otherwise.

Reply]
Ground fighting in CMA is ground and pound in such a way as you can get up quick, or are not fully on the ground yourself (One knee on for example)....Either that, or you are hitting the opponent in the head with the biggest hardest thing around...IE the ground.


OR you are down yourself, and fighting someone who is reluctant to go down too and is trrying to stomp you or kick you while you are down Ala Fukien Dog Boxing.

THAT is CMA groundFIGHTING It's all based on being as mobile as possible, going down ONLY when forced, and satying there as short of a time as possible.

Other than the ramdom Chin na if you are somehow brought down too, CMA does not grapple on the ground like BJJ. That however, does not mean there is no Ground FIGHTING, because there certianly is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Those were no different from the other demos. They were done with breaking bricks... a far cry from using a real construction brick and an even further cry from a brick wall out back.

No different eh?
Those were the "parlor trick breaks" you were refering to ?

[PangQuan]

experience makes it so. Just as you believe that cma has groundfighting, our experience tells us otherwise.

Reply]
Ground fighting in CMA is ground and pound in such a way as you can get up quick, or are not fully on the ground yourself (One knee on for example)....Either that, or you are hitting the opponent in the head with the biggest hardest thing around...IE the ground.


OR you are down yourself, and fighting someone who is reluctant to go down too and is trrying to stomp you or kick you while you are down Ala Fukien Dog Boxing.

THAT is CMA groundFIGHTING It's all based on being as mobile as possible, going down ONLY when forced, and satying there as short of a time as possible.

Other than the ramdom Chin na if you are somehow brought down too, CMA does not grapple on the ground like BJJ. That however, does not mean there is no Ground FIGHTING, because there certianly is.

Nice points here RD. I certainly have noticed this aspect of ground fighting a lot in the Southern Tiger/Crane i have been taught. Lots of strikes to the ground, dropping to one knee to strike a downed opponent and the like. I cant count the amount of time we have trained various methods of getting to your feet quickly.

Also, I have always seen the various drop kicks, often seen in shaolin styles, to be attacks to downed opponents making optimum use of gravity in your strike. Kinda like "from the top ropes" so to speak...

since the forum has gotten heavy in to the CMA/groundfighting, you have been an advocate of this aspect of CMA groundfighting, and I right along with you.

Grappling? Nah. Groundfighting? For sure.

Besides back in the day, how often did you go to a known fight/brawl/war WITHOUT a weapon? Never if you were smart. Who needs to grapple when you have a sword? Ground fight to finish a downed and injured opponent as fast as you can sure.

On a side note, In relation to the Southern, one knee ground striking elements, Ive been taught to also see yourself doing this with a blade in your hand.

Take a lot of the form you know and add daggers to it. Big difference once you do.

[SevenStar]

experience makes it so. Just as you believe that cma has groundfighting, our experience tells us otherwise.

Reply]
Ground fighting in CMA is ground and pound in such a way as you can get up quick, or are not fully on the ground yourself (One knee on for example)....Either that, or you are hitting the opponent in the head with the biggest hardest thing around...IE the ground.


OR you are down yourself, and fighting someone who is reluctant to go down too and is trrying to stomp you or kick you while you are down Ala Fukien Dog Boxing.

THAT is CMA groundFIGHTING It's all based on being as mobile as possible, going down ONLY when forced, and satying there as short of a time as possible.

Other than the ramdom Chin na if you are somehow brought down too, CMA does not grapple on the ground like BJJ. That however, does not mean there is no Ground FIGHTING, because there certianly is.

I realize that. but most of you still insist that there is ground grappling as well, which is what we are referring to. That's why if you notice, most of my posts say cma has no ground grappling.

[Knifefighter]

No different eh?
Those were the "parlor trick breaks" you were refering to ?

Exactly... special breaking bricks that crumble instead of break, scoring, etc.

Punch a hole in the brick wall in the back... now that would be impressive.

[PangQuan]

I realize that. but most of you still insist that there is ground grappling as well, which is what we are referring to. That's why if you notice, most of my posts say cma has no ground grappling.

At least I think through out all this mess we have made the clear distinction (based on the majority of course) that CMA has ground fighting, yet no extensively taught to the masses ground grappling.

Even IF cma had, in the past, an extensive amount of grappling on the ground, unfortunately CMA was its own downfall in this area as its no longer prominent.

Thus implying either

a. Ground grappling was never developed to the degree of what we see commonly today.

or

b. The masters screwed themselves and through thier own secrecy destroyed an important aspect of fighting......which I doubt any MASTER would let be lost.

So, I am partial to the former option.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Exactly... special breaking bricks that crumble instead of break, scoring, etc.

Punch a hole in the brick wall in the back... now that would be impressive.

That was a competition and the bricks and slabs were NOT supplied by the participants.

And while it is obviously NOT the same as hitting a wall, if you think that IP conditioning doesn't work you couldn't be more mistaken.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Even IF cma had, in the past, an extensive amount of grappling on the ground, unfortunately CMA was its own downfall in this area as its no longer prominent

Reply]
I don't think CMA ever had an extensive ground grappling method. It just does not make sense out of the ring and in real violent encounters. Especially when a concealed knife could be pulled so easily. ground work is just too vulnerable to stuff like that.

[SevenStar]

I don't think CMA ever had an extensive ground grappling method. It just does not make sense out of the ring and in real violent encounters.

sure it does. I do it all the time. Only once so far has someone else tried to kick me while we were down, and I saw him. I postured up so that I could use my hands and he backed off and hesitated. another bouncer ended up grabbing him.

Especially when a concealed knife could be pulled so easily. ground work is just too vulnerable to stuff like that.

in a situation with a knife, I want to control your knife hand. grappling can prevent the opponent from using the knife effectively or from even pulling it in the first place, as the key in grappling is positional dominance. Assuming that running isn't an option, I would rather be in grappling range with a knife wielder than striking range.

[PangQuan]

I also would rather be grappling with a blade wielder as well, assuming I'm either stronger, in a dominant position, or have enough skills to take control.

optimally, i would rather be at striking range with a comparable or superior weapon in my hand.

[Knifefighter]

It just does not make sense out of the ring and in real violent encounters.

What doesn't make sense is not to have a grappling component in violent encounters.