Shamanism, demonism, and some satanic imagery in Southern Arts

[CLFNole]

Expelliarmus!!!!

[NJM]

Speaking of nazis... That link...

[TenTigers]

Nazis-christians,same thing.

well, to a Jew, anyway.

[banditshaw]

keep it up Bandit, and yer lookin fer a spanking
and you're expected to be nude for your spanking, and implements might be used, such as a riding crop, belt or lexan paddle. then we can cuddle.

Well sure as long as I can spank you back with my jewel encrusted crucifix replete with haysoos and thorns.....

I'm not a cuddler by the way

[David Jamieson]

I'm kind of new to the Southern Chinese Martial Arts scene, but Grandmaster Andy recently introduced some sets from Southern Praying Mantis and Southern Tiger. He had us do some incense burning rituals, bow to some idols, and other ceremonial practices.

I stood aloof and didn't participate because it's against my Christian beliefs. Does anyone else here have these same issues? I'm not saying they're Satanic in nature, but they do seem somewhat like what we Westerners, and Eastern Easterners would associate with cultic devil worship.

I need some advice.

let's start with: what are your christian beliefs?

and what I mean by that is are your beliefs christian or religious and stemming from a particular sect or church?

[NJM]

let's start with: what are your christian beliefs?

and what I mean by that is are your beliefs christian or religious and stemming from a particular sect or church?

You're talking to John Takeshi.

[GeneChing]

Taoist "Paper Protection" in the 21st Century by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Nai Jia Guo. You'll certainly burn in Christian hell for porn talismans.

[David Jamieson]

Taoist "Paper Protection" in the 21st Century by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Nai Jia Guo. You'll certainly burn in Christian hell for porn talismans.

mmmm porn talismans...

[mantis108]

mmmm porn talismans...

Yeah... Sex is morally neutral - that is according to the article.

Puritans' sexuality is still riddled with cavemen guilt factor. So, recreational use of sex in any form is bad for them.

It's a great article. Thanks for the link, Gene.

Mantis108

[byond1]

This cant be a serious thread!!

First - "Satanic" doesnt really exist. Its from:

1)Old world Orthodox Christians who took deities from other cultures and manipulated them into being "evil/Santanic/Demonic"

2) People who are opposed to Christianity, and want to be their "villain" thus run with the term to make others uncomfortable typicaly working within a system of Humanism that has nothing to do with black magic or evil.

3) A generic term for those practising 'black magic". Which there are systems of magic deemed black, in all cultures. There deemed black because of the intent behind it or the means of one achiveing ones goal.

The term Satan is derived from a word found in Zorosterism, which was a religion that was a huge exponent of Good Vs. Evil.


I find the Christian term "pagan" absolutly hilarious. A true Pagan, based on the definition of the word, is someone that Anthropamorphisises the devine. Hence anyone that makes god a "man or woman" is a pagan by the definition. Hence christians are THE most pagan as they believe god is actually in a specific human form.

The modern religion that calls itself the "old religion" isnt really the old religion, and is imbalanced as Christianity. The one one focuses on the Male aspect, the modern Wica on the Female. The true Old religion that Taoism is a great example of, it its pure forms, do not worship any human style deities. There is the Male and Female aspects of the One. We seek to find harmony with that, not beg it for tricks and blessings. This was true of ancient druidism, Hermetics, Kabala (jewish/egyption/chaldean/Greek) and Gnositic. The true old religion/esoteric science, is typicaly degraded in all cultures, in the common person/peasant/farmer cast, into being filled with human type gods and goddess or god and angles or female god and nature spiritis.

Also many of the old religions/esoteric science, hide the knowledge with exoteric bollocks.

The true teachings of christ, which i have all the respect for are found in Gnositicm. Of cource they were killed off by the the Orthodox christians as they didnt want the general public to know, that orthodox teaching isnt waht christ taught.

The old testement has been mistranslated for hundreds of years by christians attempting to make the book support the new testament, which is impossible, as the Old testament is actually the core book of the Jewish Kabala, and if translated properly goes against everything supposedly said in teh new testament.

Its also proven that everythign in the old testament is found in older cultures than the jews. Hence they learned the stories from the Chaldeans/Babalonians and summarians. This has been proven via finding clay tablets dating to pre jew times. The old testament is a retelling of stories that all old cultures contain, especialy the flood. Hidden in the language and prose is the esoteric doctrine with at least 7 layers of differant interpretation.

The new testament...hmmmm. Well the oldest complete copy from 350ad Mt.Siani, has been found that HUGE chunks of the gospels were erased and than new material added in. They actualy used ultraviolent scanning to determine this. Even the ink used at differant periods was discovered. And the older material, has been cross referanced with other scraps found in other places. In fact all the passages of St.John and the later gospels that speciaficaly name Jesus as THE son of god were written in AFTER the fact.

The fact that the bible suggests a 6000 year old creation story is a joke. Suggesting fossels of Dinasours and Lucy are hoax is the biggest joke of all times. It is understood that the poles on the earth shift every so often. When this occures a flood happens. Continents rise. Continets fall. Hence the last flood was 10,ooo years ago. So just in our period of living since the last flood 10,000 years have passed.

Personaly i think the person that started this thread should be like all good christians. You should try and convert everyone you meet, and if they refuse, you should torture and kill them.

B

[Vajramusti]

The term Satan is derived from a word found in Zorosterism, which was a religion that was a huge exponent of Good Vs. Evil.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian- that maybe a not uncommon misunderstanding and oversimplification of Zoroastrian perspectives. There is good and there is evil---but there are inter-relationships. The Academy Award winning movie "Crash" hasa Zorosastrian overlay...the same cop who is a racist ends up rescuing a black woman from underneath a burning car. Another young cop who at first seems likea good guy ends up deliberately shooting an innocent black man. paradoxes.
Plus Zoroastrianism is NOT a missionary religion.

joy chaudhuri

[byond1]

Hi Joy,

all we can to as attempt at simplifying in this format. My only point was the term adversary is directly from Z! That like many many things was pilfered by christians, manipulated and than sold as Law.

The original poster disresepected not only Shamism but Southern Chinese beliefs as well as any which are not from his tiny little mold.

I know all to well about their Missionary style. Convert or die. My people, the Irish were ravaged by the christian wars. Thats actualy the entire reason my grandfather escaped to the USA.

You never see Jews, or Buddhists, or Gnostics, or Taoists, nor wiccans nor any faith, not even reallly in isalm either (unless you ask to learn about it), forcing their views on others, and in olden times killing and torturing those that dont buy what your selling. Only the christian faith holds that very special place in history (shared perhaps by the persians, when they did force convert others to islam)

I do my best to not discuss the "great evil" (christiantiy)- LOL publicaly to respect those that are honest good people who practise thier faith without judging others. But when idiots like this start insulting things they dont understand because they have been indoctrinated- It steams me.


B

I will check out that movie you mentioned. Sounds like i will like it!

[NJM]

Its also proven that everythign in the old testament is found in older cultures than the jews. Hence they learned the stories from the Chaldeans/Babalonians and summarians. This has been proven via finding clay tablets dating to pre jew times. The old testament is a retelling of stories that all old cultures contain, especialy the flood. Hidden in the language and prose is the esoteric doctrine with at least 7 layers of differant interpretation.

I wrote on the subject once, and was able to find it an early version saved deep within teh_archives. I chose the chunks pertaining to mesopotamian flood myths. (Note: the transfer over from MS Word into the forum box had destroyed the conventions, so I had to recreate them):

Parallels in mythological themes are quite common between the Sumerians and the early Semitic peoples. Some of the most obvious and striking parallels are between the Sumerian legends and the parables of the Torah, and there are several examples which serve to illustrate this blending of Sumerian and Semitic cultures, as transliterated across time to the Akkadians, the Babylonians and finally to the Hebrew people. One example is the mythological theme of the Deluge, which is present in all three of the Semitic cultures' mythologies as well as in in Sumerian mythology.
The original Sumerian version of the epic was titled: “Ziusudra the Immortal and his Genesis to Dilmun” and was inscribed into a clay tablet during the Third Early Dynastic Period of Sumer, around 2600 BC (most scholars believe that such legends were transmitted orally for many generations prior.) The legend tells of a man who survived a river flood which had been orchestrated by a council of the gods; the flood was intended to wipe out all of humanity so that it would not overpopulate and overuse Ki, the earth.

Ziusudra was an En (high priest) at the temple of Enki, who was the Sumerian god of wisdom, craft and the primordial sea. After Enlil, chief of the gods, held a council to decide what was to be done to solve the problem of man’s overuse of the resources on earth needed by the gods to survive, it was ordained that humanity was to be drowned in a massive river flood (presumably originating from the Tigris river.) However, Enki, who created the first humans out of clay, refused to allow all of his creations to be slaughtered for his fellow god’s comfort. He was especially fond of Ziusudra, predominently because of Ziusudra’s loyal En-ship at Enki's temple. Enki warned Ziusudra of the gods’ plan, and gave him specific instructions on how to construct a massive craft so that he could escape the Deluge. Ziusudra followed Enki’s instructions; for seven days and seven nights of unceasing rainstorm Ziusudra sailed atop the waters of a flooded Sumer. After the seventh night, the sun appeared and evaporated the floodwaters. (This is somewhat of an inference, because the sun god Utu is synonymous in Sumerian with the sun itself; it was he who stole the floodwaters up into the sky.) Ziusudra emerged from his mighty raft and made animal sacrifices to An, the supreme deity of Heaven. In return for his sacrifice and his resilience against the onslaught of the Deluge, Ziusudra was given extraordinary longevity. He was also allowed to travel to Dilmun, a land northwest of Sumer which embodied an earthly Paradise. The gods agreed that the human population would never again be put into peril from divine extermination attempts as long as it was kept in check by famine and disease.

In the Akkadian version of the Mesopotamian Deluge, there are several key similarities to the earlier Sumerian myth. The Akkadian flood hero, Atrahasis the Wise, is warned by the god Ea (Enki’s Akkadian counterpart; Enki was adopted into the Akkadian pantheon following the Sumerian assimilation) of an impending flood. Atrahasis builds a great raft, carrying the theme of an “ark” over from the Sumerian myth. As in the Ziusudra legend, Atrahasis encounters river floodwaters that cover the land, along with brutal rain and storm winds that last for seven days. After the flood, Ziusudra makes a sacrifice to Annu, the Akkadian supreme god, as Ziusudra did to An.

There are, however, several key differences between the two myths. In the Akkadian myth, Atrahasis had cultivated a personal friendship with Ea himself, often conversing with the deity about his own philosophies, laments and praise; this is the main reason why Ea chose to preserve Atrahasis’s life. Unlike the Sumerian myth, in which the gods decided as a council to exterminate mankind in order to preserve the resources of the world, the Atrahasis myth paints the god Enlil as the sole deity who orchestrated the plot out of his own contempt for humanity. Thus, Ea and Enlil are painted as opposites; Enlil plays the wrathful god, Ea the compassionate one. Instead of simply telling Atrahasis of the impending flood as Enki did to Ziusudra, Ea was sworn to silence regarding the plot to flood the world by Enlil, and could not directly reveal it to Atrahasis. Ever the wise trickster, Ea whispered of the impending flood and how to build a boat to escape it to the wall of Atrahasis’s reed house. Thus warned, Atrahasis built a great ark and survived his seven day trial by deluge. Another contrasting detail in the Atrahasis myth is the lack of immortality or longevity; Ziusudra's extended life is not explicitly granted to Atrahasis by the Akkadian gods.
Obviously based off of the Akkadian myth is the Babylonian Deluge myth featured in the Epic of Gilgamesh, a Babylonian restoration of the ancient Sumerian “Gilgamesh, Enkidu and the Ki-Gal.” The myth features the hero Utnapishtim, who bears a stronger resemblence to Atrahasis than Ziusudra. There are very few differences between the Akkadian and Babylonian myths; however, unlike the Akkadian myth, Utnapishtim is granted immortality by the gods in a similar fashion as Ziusudra in the original Sumerian version.

The Babylonian myth does add, three interesting points to the Mesopotamian deluge myth: First, Utnapishtim survives the deluge along with his wife, whose name was not recorded on the Gilgamesh tablet. Second, Utnapishtim releases a dove, a swallow and then a raven from the safety of his arc to tell him if the flood had receded from land. Third, Utnapishtim brings with him onto his raft representatives of every animal group. (It can be assumed that Ziusudra and Atrahasis also brought animals with them on their rafts, as they both had animals to sacrifice in the post-flood world.)
Although not relevant to the Sumerian myth, the Utnapishtim variations appear to parallel the Noah’s Ark parable in the Old Testament. As was the fate of Utnapishtim, Noah was given long life, and was the last man to live an extraordinary lifespan in the Old Testament. In addition, Noah brought his wife, family and two of each animal onto the ark, as did Utnapishtim. Noah also released birds, including the blackbird and the dove, to find land; Utnapishtim did the same.

Despite the Noah’s Ark parable having much in common with Babylonia’s Utnapishtim, the original Sumerian myth seems to lay many groundwork plot points for the Noah’s Ark parable. In the parable, Noah is visited by the God Jehovah, who is displeased with the state of the world for a variety of reasons; mainly the negative influence of the Nephilim on humanity. Noah is advised to build an Ark, as Ziusudra, Atrahasis and Utnapishtim were. Noah crafts a large raft in the same manner as Ziusudra. Like Ziusudra, he must endure a torrent of rain for many days. Upon reaching land again, Noah makes animal sacrifices to Jehovah, as Ziusudra did to An. In the Ziusudra myth, Enlil agrees to never again ravage the land with floodwaters; Jehovah creates a covenant with man to never again destroy the world with a deluge. In contrast to the Sumerian myth, Noah was not a servant to one of many gods. Noah’s flood lasted forty days and nights, whereas Ziusudra’s only lasted seven.

And if anyone is digging through my records, yes, it's me. I can prove it with password evidence.

[Vajramusti]

Thanks much for the interesting essay on various early flood stories.

joy chaudhuri

[byond1]

Great China - also has a flood story and may be the oldest, as the Turranians culture predated the Aryan Indians(oldest of the aryan tribe) - according to the esoteric doctrine.


Oh, and the mention and question that Buddhism uses the Swarstika, is a question asked, from someone who has zero powers of observation. Most semi intelligent people know that hitler took a beautiful symbol found in ancient India and China and manipulated it into some negative, and REVERSED the symbol. Notise what direction the swarstika turns - - it turns to the right not the left. Its purposfully been contaminated. Look at the India version and notice they turn the opposite way.