Thank you for the answer but I'm not going to post on this forum again if the members here will not treat each other with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner.
Thank you for the answer but I'm not going to post on this forum again if the members here will not treat each other with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner.
Nice knowin' ya. Good luck with the 'anti head-dives.' I'm sure you'll be the hero of your third cousin's wedding when your drunk Uncle Earl takes a dive at you from 7 feet away, passing out before he even gets to you.
"Cousin Dude! Where did you learn to fight like that?"
"Its a Wing Chun thing, you wouldn't understand."
I think that if you really want to have the answer to a well done take down attempt ( not the actual take down, that is a different thing), you need to train with guys that are excellent at take downs, they will open your eyes to the numerous ways they can take you down and from all different ranges and angles, you then take that info and see how to best use it in your system of H2H.
The sprawl is a great place to start because it not only takes your opponents targets away, it put you in a superiour position to launch a counter-attack(s).
If you have issues dealing with the Jab, you train with boxers, issues dealing with the low round kick or strikes in the clinch, you train with MT guys.
Whenever you want to focus on dealing with a specialized skill set, like a take down, train with people that specialize in it.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
That's good advice, thank you Sanjuro.
One thing though, and this is very important, training with people well trained in a specific skill set is NOT the same as training with people in your own school or gym that THINK they can do that skill set.
EX:
I took a Shuai Chaio guy to a judo class once and he was thrown around like a rag doll, I then took one of the judo guys to the SC class and HE was thrown around like a rag doll and the skill sets are far more similar than they are different.
Trust me when I say that, defending the take down VS a well trained grappler and doing the same VS a guy that "knows" how to do a take down is quite a different thing.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Sorry If I offended you with saying that wing chun had no defense for the tackle. But since you would like to know my qualifications and why I said it, I'll oblige.
I've trained in martial arts since I was 5 years old. I'm 31 now. My first style was karate, my first black belt was in TKD. In my teen years, my training focused on fighting styles then like wing chun, boxing, and muay thai; and by the way to this day--those are my longest practiced and strongest skillsets. I've got experience from a number of wing chun people/systems and also a couple of different thai coaches. But from there I started to learn a lot of traditional chinese shaolin martial arts. Jingang Quan and Wu xing Chuan. In the process learned lots of chin na, shiua jiao, tai chi, and weapons. I actually preferred Sanda the best...because we were able to incorporate all the prementioned in a full contact arena where I could use the strikes AND throws. Anyway...since MMA was becoming even more popular, I decided it was time to learn some ground game, because a smart fighter stays with the times and adapts to his or her surroundings. I learned BJJ for almost a year, mainly to keep myself out of trouble so I could get back to my own preferred methods. Now I maintain my wing chun, boxing, and muay thai for the most part.
You see, I've been a mixed martial artist see well before being an mma'er was popular. I've trained in a number of wing chun schools and from a number of lineages. None had a defense for the takedown other than stay away or rotate out of the way. None really worked because one theory was contradictory to the wing chun method of shooting in, and the other just simply didn't work.
Just in case you didn't know, most traditional arts were also formulated from mixing martial arts. None of it is pure my friend. So adapting outside your system or adapting your current system is simply evolution and improvement. The pragmatic process has been lost somewhere though...probably when teachers wanted to retain students and keep them under contract and so someone started talking crap about loyalty to the system and everything can be found in the forms bull. Be loyal to yourself, because it's only you that's going to determine the outcome of any of your fights.
Last edited by SAAMAG; 03-25-2008 at 10:19 AM.
"I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.
It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."
By your own admittance, being a CMA artist is a MMA'ist. I don't care where the technique comes from, as long as it works (for me).
The answer is in the forms right? Most people who want to learn to fight don't have time to study the same form set for 10 years before figuring out how to adapt their system to defend something. It's not about lack of patience, it's about efficiency.
Absolutely correct. So then why are you trying to "figure out" something from your own style when the answers are out there right now being used by people who are proficient in it already? The human body can only be used so many different ways, why does it matter what "style" a move comes from?
Yep...Shuai Jiao was the predecessor to all of this stuff in my opinion--to Judo and Jujutsu. I've used my chin na in that BJJ class that I took in Florida and people were like WTF?! Because I improvised using what i knew at the time to try and survive in my new environment. They'd never seen a wrist lock done on someone in there since they focus on large joint manipulation as opposed to small joint.
"I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.
It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
You've got good points, but the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of MMAists so far... I put this down to logical (sparring, full contact etc) training, conditioning and strength combined with the skills: so it really is a question of logic and not a denigration of CMA in any way. But that's just me.
I don't see anyone claiming that on this thread, but please, by all means, do continue with your programmed knee-jerk rant!
Now who's jumping to conclusions and making baseless presumptions about who's training what...?Originally Posted by tattooedmonk
Cool, I haven't seen it yet, but I've heard a lot about it and it sounds great... looking forward to it. He is, as I'm sure you know, in a distinct minority in CMA circles, and you can't really compare his techs to BJJ and MMA grappling. Not because they're faulty, but simply in terms of numbers. I'd love to go to one of Tim Cartmell's seminars and learn some of his stuff, but living in Japan, it's not that likely: and ask anyone which they have more access to; JJ, wrestling or CMA grappling, and I know the answer you'll get.Originally Posted by tattooedmonk
You're getting over-defensive: like I said, it's not a qualitative judgment necessarily, but a purely quantative one. For now, I've got two questions:
1) How many front tackles does he/you have? (Since that's the subject of the thread...)
2) How do they compare technically to BJJ/wrestling ones?
Oh, and chill.
its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist
Sometime blog on training esp in Japan
Bye!
But before you go:
Saying this, after Vankuen's long, helpful, detailed and impartial post is just plain ol' ill-mannered, pal.
Let's see... sprawl, train with people who sprawl and practice takedowns...? Hmm, nothing that hadn't already been said, which you'd have noticed if you hadn't been so busy pulling your thong out of your ass-crack.
So, in conclusion: practice what you preach and **** off until you can treat others with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner, you pompous ass...
its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist
Sometime blog on training esp in Japan
its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist
Sometime blog on training esp in Japan
Oh come on, you haven't been out enough to meet the vastly superior-numbered IMpractical MA teachers???!
Again, people's definitions of practical are the moot point.Originally Posted by sanjuro
And I'm afraid you'll find many people were skiving off the history lessons...
its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist
Sometime blog on training esp in Japan
I have the book in question and it shows some standing and grappling moves that are found in wrestling and judo/jujutsu, which makes sense on many levels, from tha fact that the human body works in finite angles and the fact that grappling moves are consistent through the various cultures.You're getting over-defensive: like I said, it's not a qualitative judgment necessarily, but a purely quantative one. For now, I've got two questions:
1) How many front tackles does he/you have? (Since that's the subject of the thread...)
2) How do they compare technically to BJJ/wrestling ones?
Oh, and chill.
Tim is a BJJ Black Belt by the way.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !