WC's Ground Game

[Katsu Jin Ken]

The title of this thread is kindof misleading. I wanted to say in MMA but the UFC isnt real mixed martial arts more like jack of all trades master of none. Sorry, back on point.

Do you all believe that WC has a ground game? How about throws? Could it rival BJJ on the ground? Whats your take on TWC being used in a combat sport setting? TWC on the street in a true NHB setting?

This has probably been asked several thousands times before but ive been viewing this forum for a few years now. It has less trolls and more info than ever before thats why i posted these questions again for the umtenith time.



My take on it:

Ground Game: You can use the same basic principles of wing chun on the ground just as if you were standing. You have to have a good base nomatter what position your in. Constant forword pressure. Dont let your self collapse, right and left defend accordingly. dont give up your center. Those can all be used on the ground. William Cheung recently wrote and article in Bla** Belt magazine about just such techniques.

Throws: I love throws having a JJ background, but its all there in the wing chun. Chum Kiu has the outside leg circles at the beginning of the form (atleast our version does) those are clearly leg reaps. The turning double lan saus can become head & arm throws like Uchi Mata or Ochi Gari variations. In Biu Gee, the Emergency bend at the waist towards the end of the form easily become hip throws like Ogoshi. Just looking at the motions looks alot like Seio Naga. If you just set down at the bend over position its a sit down throw.


BJJ: im not a huge fan of. They pretty much ignore the lower half of the body. Im more fond of the Russian sambo style of leg locks position. "Position over submission"- Tony Cecchine (Catch as Catch Can)


What do you all think?

[Knifefighter]

You can take some of the principles of anything and use them on the ground. However, unless you know where the specific differences lie, they won't do you much good.

As far as leg locks go, they are great. However, throw strikes and or weapons into the ground mix and you will find that the position before submission approach of BJJ probably makes more sense.

[Genetic]

you will find that the position before submission approach of BJJ probably makes more sense.

This is possibly the single most important factor of BJJ that can be assimilated into any art to make it better.

It should already be in wing chun, (if not in the psyche of many of the exponents.)

If not it needs re-incorporating. Hitting someone for the sake of it is a waste of time. You should be hitting them to finish the fight.

In BJJ you control the opponent before submitting them. In wing chun you should be controling the opponent before finishing them.

BJJ has a lot to offer. As far as on the ground, wing chun just cannot compete. Wing chun principles on the ground wont necessarilly stop you being on the wrong end of an arm bar or a triangle choke, when you thought you were going to finish the opponent off with an attempted strike to their head. etc...

But as to wing chun having a lot to offer on the ground. It does. Explosive power. Short range striking and close quarters fighting. Sensitivity.

But the pins and transitions of BJJ are a powerful toolset on the ground that attempting to circumvent, or avoid would be a mistake, as they form the basis of the solid foundation that you need on the ground, when you dont have YJKYM to support you.

As to UFC jack of all trades, master of none, I think we have been watching different fights. Those guys are warriors. And are masters of MMA. they are professional fighters, and I dont get why people dont appreciate them for what they are. But then Im not insecure...It doesnt bother me that they would kill me in unarmed combat.
How many of them are BJJ black belts? BJJ black belts dont come free in your morning cerial. If that isnt mastery, what is?

[anerlich]

TWC (William Cheung) has always had techniques for fighting from the ground. But the emphasis is on keeping the guy away, hurting him or taking him down so that you can stand back up rather than any real positional game.

On the ground, a TWC guy's major weapons are his legs. Keep your legs between you and him (basic BJJ as well, but the emphasis is very different). If he moves, spin or turn to follow him. Kick his shins, knees, ankles, groin, torso, head. There are a few ways to take him down by entangling his legs with yours.

If he gets past your legs, you're pretty vulnerable, though there are a few desperation measures.

My MMA coach espouses a pretty similar strategy when striking is allowed and the guy is in range (generally meaning not close enough to control your legs). Antonio Inoki lasted the entire fight with Muhammad Ali unscathed using this strategy, Renzo Gracie KO'ed Oleg Taktarov with it, and Allen Goes used it successfully against Sakuraba.

Is it as good as BJJ for groundfighting? If I though it was, I wouldn't have worked toward my purple belt in BJJ.

BJJ: im not a huge fan of. They pretty much ignore the lower half of the body. Im more fond of the Russian sambo style of leg locks position. "Position over submission"- Tony Cecchine (Catch as Catch Can)

I'm not sure the generalisation you make about BJJ is that valid any more, though, yes, the upper body is usually seen as a better submission option. Miss a leg lock, you're often left in a poor position. "Position over Submission" is a BJJ maxim and hardly something Tony C came up with on his own. Most sensible grapplers these days like to learn from each other and don't get hung up on stylistic purity, unlike too many TCMA people.

Victor has been kind enough to send me a few Tony C tapes, and there is some good stuff on there, and the foot/leglock stuff is very good. But Tony C has collaborated with BJJ guys too,

Rigan Machado won an American Sambo championship fairly easily a while back. By all accounts Russian Sambo is a lot better though.

Also BJJ is a lot easier to find than catch wrestling, except maybe in the US.

[punchdrunk]

The number 1 problem for wing chun on the ground is few schools train it at all, not to mention training it to the point where they are as comfortable there as a true grappler. If you spent just an hour a day wrestling people you might possibly start a descent wing chun ground game for yourself, but you would probably be re-inventing things you could learn more quickly elsewhere.
However if your training does make progress in the ground there is no reason to not include it as part of your own wing chun. Wing Chun has room to grow!
Good topic, good posts.

[Wu Wei Wu]

It is inefficient to try to make Wing Chun work on the ground, when there are far superior methods for that range. Sure you can try to find Wing Chun principles and try to make them apply to the ground, or alternatively, you can save time by just learning from someone who moves well on the ground, be it wrestling, BJJ, catch, sambo etc etc.

Take Wing Chun out of the equation. To be a complete fighter, one should incorporate some grappling into his method.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

As to UFC jack of all trades, master of none, I think we have been watching different fights. Those guys are warriors. And are masters of MMA. they are professional fighters, and I dont get why people dont appreciate them for what they are. But then Im not insecure...It doesnt bother me that they would kill me in unarmed combat.
How many of them are BJJ black belts? BJJ black belts dont come free in your morning cerial. If that isnt mastery, what is?

I love MMA watch it all the time but...90% have mastered nothing. When you say "i want to train MMA" i think i just have an issue with the name. Mixed Martial Arts means a mixture of different martial arts not just going to a gym you know what i mean? I think Combat Sport is a more suitable name. MMA today you arent learning an "art". Martial arts isnt just about fighting.

BJJ black belts dont come free thats true its hard to get one. BJJ is probably the most popular grappling art today. We can all thank Al Bundy (Ed O'Neil) for that

IMO Wing chun doesnt have ground work because on the battlefield going to the ground would mean death. Going to the ground for any length of time now is a bad move it is never 1 on 1 anymore.

[punchdrunk]

of course a ground game includes taking an opponent off their feet to finish them with a hold or strikes, something that would be useful on any battle field. Not many wing chun schools train striking an opponent you have knocked or thrown to the ground and it is something that should be studied for practical purposes. I know even before the BJJ revolution most JJ dojo's included this in their drill training and i suspect many traditional systems had it before as well. Those kind of ideas would be very easy to start training and find results fast.

[Genetic]

Martial arts isnt just about fighting.

If not, there is something seriously wrong.

BJJ black belts dont come free thats true its hard to get one. BJJ is probably the most popular grappling art today. We can all thank Al Bundy (Ed O'Neil) for that

You have lost me there, what does Al Bundy have to do with BJJ?

IMO Wing chun doesnt have ground work because on the battlefield going to the ground would mean death. Going to the ground for any length of time now is a bad move it is never 1 on 1 anymore.

And it is never let them get back on their feet and resume from standing anymore. Times and cultures change. And if a martial art doesnt adapt, it may as well be dead. BJJ has lots to offer and learn from, when it comes to being comfortable on the ground, it is a great place to look. Me Im not comfortable on the ground, that is why I train BJJ. Because I was uncomfortable, and because it was a problem area.

Like you say going to the ground for any length of time is a bad move, so if you find yourself there, you need to be comfortable, or you are in serious trouble.

[taai gihk yahn]

Me Im not comfortable on the ground, that is why I train BJJ. Because I was uncomfortable, and because it was a problem area.

this, in a nutshell, should be the attitude that everyone has about their MA training; in Buddhism they talk about "leaning into the sharp points"...

[anerlich]

You have lost me there, what does Al Bundy have to do with BJJ?

Ed O'neill, the actor who plays Al Bundy, has been doing BJJ for a long time. He was presented with his black belt not that long ago, at age 60, by Rener and Ryron Gracie (I think). You can find Youtube of him getting his black belt, and jpeg's of him play wrestling with Helio Gracie.

To suggest that he is significantly responsible for the popularity of BJJ is to do both BJJ and him a major disservice, though, nd is a ridiculous thing to say. I've certainly never met anyone who said "I took up BJJ because Al Bundy does it."

The popularity of BJJ is largely due to the UFC and clever marketing by Rorion et al.

That and the fact that it is pretty ****ed effective.

[anerlich]

IMO Wing chun doesnt have ground work because on the battlefield going to the ground would mean death.

Some of the predecessor arts of Jiu Jitsu were also allegedly battle field arts. A soldier would take the enemy down and control him long enough to find a way to stab him though *****s in the armour.

[Genetic]

To suggest that he is significantly responsible for the popularity of BJJ is to do both BJJ and him a major disservice

I guess this was the aim, trying to associate BJJ to Al Bundy via Ed O'Neil, as opposed to BJJ to its considerable success in the world of mixed martial arts and its major role in the shaping of modern martial art.

Oh I forgot, that is if you consider fighting to even be considered a martial art at all...

[anerlich]

I respect Ed O'Neill and his training. He took up BJJ when he was about the same age I was when I took it up. I'm hoping I'll make black belt before I become a sexagenarian.

He's typecast as Al Bundy, but he's done OK as a serious actor as well.

[Genetic]

I respect Ed O'Neill and his training. He took up BJJ when he was about the same age I was when I took it up. I'm hoping I'll make black belt before I become a sexagenarian.

He's typecast as Al Bundy, but he's done OK as a serious actor as well.

I love Al Bundy! Okay I've not watched the show in years, but used to really enjoy it when I was younger.

I was wondering though how you have a forum join date of 1970?

Did the internet even exist then???

At the moment, Id be happy to get to blue belt. I've still got to get comfortable on the floor. Im getting there though.