Wing Chun in MMA?

[Edmund]

Well I had a well thought out and even spell checked response, But it seems it did not post.

So I will just ask, what exactly it is that seems far-fetched?

Can I be clinched, thrown, submitted on the ground? Yes I can!

Do I plan to match a BJJ (or any other well trained ground fighter) on the ground? No I don't!

Do I train for the ground? Yes I do. I train in my Kwoon, and I train against people outside of my Kwoon.

Not knowing what your WC Di Tong entails, it's difficult to assess what you consider is good enough in terms of ground fighting. You said it was more than clawing and pinching but that still leaves a lot of possibly bad ideas.

[OdderMensch]

Not knowing what your WC Di Tong entails, it's difficult to assess what you consider is good enough in terms of ground fighting. You said it was more than clawing and pinching but that still leaves a lot of possibly bad ideas.

Well I'm full of bad ideas! My own personal theory can be summed in three words.

"Steel Toed Boots"



Ideas in fighting are dangerous things. Much of what has worked for me has come from our basic self defense and beginning exercises.

Assuming that "don't go there" fails, and "get back up" is imprudent, then "relax and hurt" becomes a good idea.

Get on top and hit if you can, cover if you can't "Greet what comes, entertain what remains, rush forth on loss of contact." Practice from possible mounts, both sides of them and how and when mounts may need to adjust. Train, Drill, Mix, Repeat.

Train sensitivity and awareness on the ground as well as standing. Train Hitting from the ground and with the ground.

I've never been taught to rely on vital targets or overly ambitious breaks or locks.

Some to most locks and holds work on the ground pretty much as they do standing, not all of them and its good to know when and why. Practice standing and on the ground, being in them, escaping them and applying them.

And train against people other than friends whenever you can.

[Edmund]

Some to most locks and holds work on the ground pretty much as they do standing, not all of them and its good to know when and why. Practice standing and on the ground, being in them, escaping them and applying them.

And train against people other than friends whenever you can.

I think the issue is that it can be quite difficult to effectively train without knowledge of the fundamentals of groundfighting. While you may never beat an experienced grappler at their own game, you shouldn't be making fundamental errors. The taiji groundfighting clip in the other thread is an example of plenty of errors. That wouldn't happen if people took the time to learn some fundamentals.

[Wayfaring]

I think the issue is that it can be quite difficult to effectively train without knowledge of the fundamentals of groundfighting. While you may never beat an experienced grappler at their own game, you shouldn't be making fundamental errors. The taiji groundfighting clip in the other thread is an example of plenty of errors. That wouldn't happen if people took the time to learn some fundamentals.

You know that's true about the fundamentals. A lot of the upcoming MMA youngsters aren't training straight BJJ and all the nuances or aren't the expert grapplers.

But the difference between them and a lot of the wing chun schools is that they all roll with expert grapplers. They develop their fundamentals like posture and movement first, and their defense to be able to not be submitted in a fight. They develop their top game first combined with strikes.

There's learning in that there approach somewhere, even if someone doesn't want to train to be an expert grappler.

[Genetic]

So there's two sides to this: you gotta have the ability (or network of people)to rip WC apart and you gotta have the ability (or network of people) to put it back together in a fight context.

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. Unfortunately attempting to rip wing chun apart is sacraligeios in certain (mainly wing chun) circles.

Sorry about my spelling.

[Edmund]

But the difference between them and a lot of the wing chun schools is that they all roll with expert grapplers. They develop their fundamentals like posture and movement first, and their defense to be able to not be submitted in a fight. They develop their top game first combined with strikes.

AND they don't probably make a video before that!

[couch]

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. Unfortunately attempting to rip wing chun apart is sacraligeios in certain (mainly wing chun) circles.

Sorry about my spelling.

I think research and development is important no matter what you're studying. For many people, their WC they had passed down to them sucks. Mine kinda sucked, too. I honour and respect my Sifu because he spent a lot of time researching his to get it to the level it was at when I learned form him. When I left, he was going in a different direction than me - and I respect that.

It's taken a lot of bridge-building, research and sweat to put things back together - and I'm so proud of where I am now. A good friend told me that the tadpole swims through the mud to get to the clear water. But it shouldn't have to be this way.

To me, the way I view Wing Chun now is completely different than I did before I left my Sifu. In fact, I never knew what the hell I was doing or why I was doing it! LOL

Now, I see Wing Chun in a better light. It's about power generation in a close-quarter scenario. It's about gun-slinger reflexes. It's about destruction of your opponents Centre Of Mass. I look at it no different than Western Boxing - except it's closer and centreline based.

When you start to pressure-test (Goh Sau or Spar), you start to see that all the patty-cake crap goes right out the window. A lot of the 'flashy' stuff from the system also goes out the window. So what are you left with? A punch. A kick. Centreline recovery in the event those don't get through. LOL ...and maybe some other tools depending on your personal disposition/abilities.

Anywho. That's where I see it, and that's where I'm headed!

Cheers!

[Lee Chiang Po]

You guys are embarrising. You argue over stuff you have no clues about. You are comparing everything to MMA fighters. Most of these guys we see in the ring are not really super skilled at much of anything, but are hugely muscled and strong, and even some of the better MMA fighters get their butts kicked. The question of whether or not a Wing chun fighter could stand a chance is silly. Most of these guys hold black belts in other styles of fighting and it don't help them any.So why should WC be any different? The big question to me is not whether a MMA fighter can whip a good wing chun man, but can YOU whip a good wing chun man using your little MMA skills? MMA is fantasy fighting. Looks brutal, but it is just fantasy. Rules out the ears, and a ref that is right there to keep you from being beaten to death. If you are going to fight in the ring you will fight by the same rules as the other guy. You become all equal except for size and strength. Besides, I think I read a while back that a bunch of them got busted over steriod use. Any truth to that?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Lee, I usually agree with most of your posts, but this one is clearly misguided and needs a response...

"You are comparing everything to MMA fighters. Most of these guys we see in the ring are not really super skilled at much of anything, but are hugely muscled and strong..."

***YES, most of them are very conditioned, muscled, and strong - which is exactly what is needed to be a good fighter. Fighting is about WILL, SKILL, AND CONDITIONING - and quite often a better conditioned fighter (whether we're talking mma or anything else) WILL win out over someone with better skills. It happens everyday of the week - including in streetfights. A better skilled fighter can easily be outlasted and/or overpowered by a lesser skilled fighter.

As for "not really super skilled at anything" - there are plenty of mma fighters who DO have good skills at striking/kicking...good skiils at clinch fighting...good skills at ground fighting/wrestling/grappling.

.................................................. ......

"and even some of the better MMA fighters get their butts kicked."

***OF COURSE. Because we are talking about very thin gloves worn when full power punches land, no protective shin or knee pads to absorb leg kicks, body slams and other powerful takedowns, serious submission holds, and equal weight classes.

.................................

"The big question to me is not whether a MMA fighter can whip a good wing chun man, but can YOU whip a good wing chun man using your little MMA skills?"

***AND the keyword here is "little". How about "big" mma skills? What about that?!

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"MMA is fantasy fighting. Looks brutal, but it is just fantasy. Rules out the ears, and a ref that is right there to keep you from being beaten to death. If you are going to fight in the ring you will fight by the same rules as the other guy. You become all equal except for size and strength. Besides, I think I read a while back that a bunch of them got busted over steriod use. Any truth to that?"

***SURE, some guys have been caught roiding. So what? This doesn't change the basic premise AND OVERALL FIGHT EFFICIENCY of crosstraining (MMA).

"Fantasy" you say? This is 180 degrees away from the truth. It's the more traditional martial arts (and especially the stand up striking/kicking styles) that are living in a fantasy world - because they don't take into account what can happen when fighting against skilled fighters who use VERY different fight strategies and techniques - as well as varied strategies and techniques coming from one-and-the-same fighter.

[couch]

You guys are embarrising. You argue over stuff you have no clues about. You are comparing everything to MMA fighters. Most of these guys we see in the ring are not really super skilled at much of anything, but are hugely muscled and strong, and even some of the better MMA fighters get their butts kicked.

The fundamental reason martial art 'styles' get compared to MMA is because of practicality. There are two men, toe to toe, trying to take each other's head off. Yes their are rules, but it's as close to a legalized street fight as we're gonna get. Better take notice.

To say that these fighters are not skilled at much of anything is a blanket statement. There are those that come into the sport that are, perhaps, huge monsters with big muscles. But, in my eyes, those aren't the types of individuals that represent the sport (or those who last long in the sport). Many MMA fighters spend countless hours in the gym refining tried, tested and true martial arts. You can't say they don't have skill. Watching the last boxing fight, Pacquiao countered with a punch and bobbed under Hatton's left hook. That's skill, timing, etc. We see the same amazing demonstration in MMA.

It is true that some of the better MMA fighters do get their butts kicked from time to time. But that doesn't mean that those 'better' fighters aren't skilled. It shows the human condition: that sometimes it's just not your day.

The question of whether or not a Wing chun fighter could stand a chance is silly. Most of these guys hold black belts in other styles of fighting and it don't help them any.So why should WC be any different?

You're actually saying that their previous training in a martial art doesn't help an MMA fighter in any way? What about skills they learned? Karo Parisyan's Judo skills didn't help his MMA? GSP's Karate background didn't help his MMA? They even still use those 'techniques' too!

The big question to me is not whether a MMA fighter can whip a good wing chun man, but can YOU whip a good wing chun man using your little MMA skills? MMA is fantasy fighting. Looks brutal, but it is just fantasy. Rules out the ears, and a ref that is right there to keep you from being beaten to death. If you are going to fight in the ring you will fight by the same rules as the other guy. You become all equal except for size and strength. Besides, I think I read a while back that a bunch of them got busted over steriod use. Any truth to that?

Imagine! A sport where you can pressure test all types of different ranges, attacks, defense, etc in a somewhat safe environment! Doesn't sound like fantasy to me. MMA is more than just bigger vs. smaller OR stronger vs. weaker. It's got the same things that other contact/pressure testing martial arts does: heart, cardio, sweat, blood, tears, skills, etc.

Lastly, wherever there is sport or competition, there will always be bad people trying to cheat the system. That doesn't discredit the sport - or any sport for that matter.

I've watched you post before and are dead set in your opinions. This post was mostly cathartic, so don't take offense.

All the best.

[Mr Punch]

Odder, don't worry, the fact that you practice something that at least in some ways resembles ground fighting means you'll have the advantage over probably 90% of the people you meet who haven't done wrestling, BJJ or judo.

If you really want to improve your getting up, your getting on top and your striking from any angle on the ground, you should probably train any kind of grappling or MMA.

BTW, I've trained with mantis people too, and their throwing skills are no comparison to your average judoka.

Lee, if you knew anything about the skill level of your average MMA practitioner you might have something interesting to say. I doubt it, mind.

[Mr Punch]

BTW LCP, I've watched you post before and please, feel free to take offence.

I believe a lot of what you say about having had a hard life, and lots of fights and seen lots of violence and blah blah blah. It still doesn't mean you know everything, or that you don't hold a lot of mis- and pre-conceptions. Even self-styled hard men can be full of it. However much you experience - you can always experience more.

[OdderMensch]

Odder, don't worry, the fact that you practice something that at least in some ways resembles ground fighting means you'll have the advantage over probably 90% of the people you meet who haven't done wrestling, BJJ or judo.

If you really want to improve your getting up, your getting on top and your striking from any angle on the ground, you should probably train any kind of grappling or MMA.

BTW, I've trained with mantis people too, and their throwing skills are no comparison to your average judoka.

lol than either I need to find a better class of judoka or you need to find a better class of mantis people

[OdderMensch]

If you really want to improve your getting up, your getting on top and your striking from any angle on the ground, you should probably train any kind of grappling or MMA.

So you are saying that my training time would be better spent with any random MMA or grappling gym than training in the style I hope to master?

I'm sorry I just don't see it.

A MMA fighter (short term training, young, big, confident) I've been talking to at work recently asked my what my defense or "what I would do about" a choke hold properly held with the hand in the crook of the elbow (he demonstrated in the air) I told him, "well grab me" and i gave him my back (not a commonly taught or sound tactical move I'll agree)

He grabbed me from a standing position and clamped down pretty hard. I quickly jammed my chin into his elbow, grabbed his arm with both hands and hugged it, then sank my weight, putting him enough off balance to drive him back into a wall.

He was still holding pretty hard, but I had bought myself some space to attack with the hand with the worst leverage on the grab and the better shot at 'vital targets' I opted for a hard fist to the front of his thigh.

He slacked of and started complain, i got free of the hold and listened to his argument.

I should note this is a defense you learn standing in your first month, and apply on the ground in your first year.

"well no if we were on the ground and I hand my hips like this and my feet wrapped around you........"

what he referenced as a rear naked choke.

He had told me already that his plan for such a hold was to relax, then when 'most guys' slacken the hold (presumably because you are going unconscious) you 'like bust out' and reverse the position in some way 'really quick'

Now, knowing that 'relax and hurt' is already a big part of my fighting training on the ground, how exactly is this better training?

I train hard not to get into a choke like that, and its of a handful of spots that we now have to tap out of, unless there are a few things wrong with the hold and we can get out of it.

I did offer for him to try and put me like that, we're discussing glove choice right now. He declined to fight immediately and bare knuckled

[Edmund]

So you are saying that my training time would be better spent with any random MMA or grappling gym than training in the style I hope to master?

I'm sorry I just don't see it.

A MMA fighter (short term training, young, big, confident) I've been talking to at work recently asked my what my defense or "what I would do about" a choke hold properly held with the hand in the crook of the elbow (he demonstrated in the air) I told him, "well grab me" and i gave him my back (not a commonly taught or sound tactical move I'll agree)

He grabbed me from a standing position and clamped down pretty hard. I quickly jammed my chin into his elbow, grabbed his arm with both hands and hugged it, then sank my weight, putting him enough off balance to drive him back into a wall.
..
..
..

OM,

I'm sorry but these are not the same as lessons in the fundamentals of groundfighting. FOR INSTANCE, you were standing up!!

How will you learn the fundamentals of groundfighting without actually taking lessons from someone who is teaching you?

You say you train on the ground already?
Then taking lessons on techniques and concepts from ground fighting experts is not a big step and would be quite familiar.